Several questions regarding the Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger) attacks.


Rules Questions


Below is my understanding of the options available to this animal companion for attacking. Any corrections would be greatly appreciated and citations would be amazing!

Standard Action:
Bite Attack
OR
2 Claw Attacks

In this case the 2 Claw Attacks are considered a primary attack therefor the -5 penalty to attack is NOT included in either attack. (Bestiary 315)

Full Round Action:
Bite Attack
AND
2 Claw Attacks

In this case either the bite attack OR 2 claw attacks are considered a secondary attack. Therefor either both claws OR the bite will receive -5 attack bonus.

Rake while grappling:
(Bite Attack OR 2 Claw Attack)
AND
2 Claw Attacks

This is where I truly start to become lost. First off normally when you grapple you do your checks then as part of that you can choose to do damage (Core 200). Does this require an attack roll and when referring to a natural attack are the 2 claws considered one natural attack? In addition to the normal stuff does this animal companion gain 2 additional claw attacks (requiring an attack roll) due to rake? The ambiguity arises in that rake simple says 1d4 / 1d6 as opposed to most creatures which list 2 claws for the attack. No -5 penalty is applied for multiple attacks.

Pounce:
Bite Attack
AND
2 Claw Attacks
AND
2 Claw Attacks

This one is as I understand now simple your full round action (above) added with your rake (questioned above). -5 penalty is applied to either the bite attack or 2 claw attacks.

In addition does the grab special attack affect all of the creatures natural weapons? Normally for the bestiary creatures it's listed beside the attack is effects.

Liberty's Edge

Claws and Bite are always primary, no matter how many of them you have, unless you are using them with a manufactured weapon or got those attacks from a source that explicit notes otherwise (which is basically never for monsters).

This means that you never take the -5 to attack with either the claws or the bite.

The Rake attacks are in addition to the normal "single natural attack" you get. This means you get automatic claw damage once from succeeding the grapple, then get to do the rake attack afterward. If you lose the grapple, you don't get rake. I assume that the rake on the cat was meant to be a claw.

EDIT: As for the grab, I assume it was meant to be on all attacks. This is true of the normal Tiger, which is one of the creatures that it says qualify as a big cat.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

Claws and Bite are always primary, no matter how many of them you have, unless you are using them with a manufactured weapon or got those attacks from a source that explicit notes otherwise (which is basically never for monsters).

This means that you never take the -5 to attack with either the claws or the bite.

In reference to Multiattack (Core 53) this feat itself would be worthless. However in this case the creature would actually gain a secondary attack (Having only 2 natural attacks). Would this be two additional claw attacks from multiattack? So whenever he did a full round action to attack it would be 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 claws secondary? A standard would then result in ..?

StabbittyDoom wrote:
The Rake attacks are in addition to the normal "single natural attack" you get. This means you get automatic claw damage once from succeeding the grapple, then get to do the rake attack afterward. If you lose the grapple, you don't get rake. I assume that the rake on the cat was meant to be a claw.

When you refer to "automatic claw damage" is this referring to a single claw attack of 1d4+x or both claws so 2d4+(x*2)?

StabbittyDoom wrote:
EDIT: As for the grab, I assume it was meant to be on all attacks. This is true of the normal Tiger, which is one of the creatures that it says qualify as a big cat.

Agreed though only on basis of assumption.

Liberty's Edge

Yes, multi-attack would be worthless for the big cat animal companion. Oddly, it's a good thing for it to be worthless. The only time it helps is when you have something that's sub-par (i.e. having only one or two natural attack, or having secondary natural attacks). The creature that gets the biggest boost from multi-attack is the T-Rex, which gets a second bite attack (and they add 2* strength on those).

The "automatic claw damage" refers to a single claw attack. The "damage" choice of grapple is always a single attack, no matter what (but you get to pick which form of attack). Rake is its own separate source of damage that happens to require the opponent to be grappled.


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Yes, multi-attack would be worthless for the big cat animal companion. Oddly, it's a good thing for it to be worthless. The only time it helps is when you have something that's sub-par (i.e. having only one or two natural attack, or having secondary natural attacks). The creature that gets the biggest boost from multi-attack is the T-Rex, which gets a second bite attack (and they add 2* strength on those).

So the tiger would not gain any secondary attacks from this either? Sounds like he would since he only has two natural attacks (unless 2 claws count as 2 separate natural attacks).

If he does what would this secondary attack be?

Thanks for all of the help by the way!

Liberty's Edge

Vestax159 wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Yes, multi-attack would be worthless for the big cat animal companion. Oddly, it's a good thing for it to be worthless. The only time it helps is when you have something that's sub-par (i.e. having only one or two natural attack, or having secondary natural attacks). The creature that gets the biggest boost from multi-attack is the T-Rex, which gets a second bite attack (and they add 2* strength on those).

So the tiger would not gain any secondary attacks from this either? Sounds like he would since he only has two natural attacks (unless 2 claws count as 2 separate natural attacks).

If he does what would this secondary attack be?

Thanks for all of the help by the way!

You only get extra attacks if you have less than three. Your creature has 3: bite, claw and claw. Each claw counts as its own attack.


Example #1: Standard Action
The tiger gets ONE attack, either one bite or one claw, since you can't normally take more than one attack as a standard action, no matter how many attacks you normally have.

Example #2: Full Round Action
The tiger get three attacks. One bite, two claws. Note that natural attacks are only secondary attacks if their attack type is listed as such (or if combining them with BaB-based attack routines, but tigers don't do that a lot :)). Hooves are secondary attacks. Wing buffet is a secondary attack. Bites and claws are primary attacks, and full attacking doesn't change this.

Example #3: Rake while grappling
When a creature with Grab makes a grapple using that ability, it will deal damage according to the natural attack it used to start the grapple with. So if the tiger bites and succeeds on the grapple, it will continue to deal bite damage on every turn the grapple is maintained. On top of this, rake allows it (in this case) to continue attacking with two claws. In essence, this allows the tiger to continue its normal full-attack routine while grappling (but see final note below).

Example #4: Pounce
The tiger gets five attacks. The three attacks it normally has, plus two from rake. None of these attacks are considered secondary attacks unless specifically noted.

Final note:
The description of the animal companion special abilities are really all kinds of lacking. It doesn't specify which attacks get grab (normal tigers get it on all attacks, lions get it on their bite) or what kinds of attack the rake is (all examples I've seen for bestiary animals, it's been two claws). I would assume that the animal companion get grab on its bite (only) and a two-claw rake (doing the damage listed).

Is that any helpful?

Liberty's Edge

StabbittyDoom wrote:
You only get extra attacks if you have less than three. Your creature has 3: bite, claw and claw. Each claw counts as its own attack.

I believe that it doesn't. The only way for the Multiattack feat (and the Multiattack special ability for ACs) to really make sense is to count each attack (Bite, Beak, Claws, Wings ...) mentioned in the creature's description as one attack for the purpose of the Multiattack feat, even if it mentions a number of the same attack (like 2 claws).

This way, the Lion (for example) gets 2 primary attacks (Bite and Claws) with which it makes 3 attack rolls (1 for the Bite and 2 for the Claws) at no penalty.

While a Red Dragon has 2 primary attacks (Bite and Claws) and 2 secondary attacks (Wings and Tail Slap) with which it makes 3 attack rolls at no penalty (1 for the Bite and 2 for the Claws) and 3 attack rolls at -5 (2 for the Wings and 1 for the Tail Slap).

When you count attacks this way, the Multiattack feat and the special ability for ACs make perfect sense :

- A Dragon who takes the Multiattack feat will attack with its 2 Wings and 1 Tail Slap at -2

- A Dragon AC (if such a thing existed) would get the Multiattack feat with the above result once it gained the Multiattack special ability

- A Lion AC, when it gains the Multiattack special ability, will gain a second attack with one of its natural weapons (ie, 1 Bite or 1 Claw) at a -5 penalty (ie, a secondary attack)


Slaunyeh wrote:

Example #3: Rake while grappling

When a creature with Grab makes a grapple using that ability, it will deal damage according to the natural attack it used to start the grapple with. So if the tiger bites and succeeds on the grapple, it will continue to deal bite damage on every turn the grapple is maintained. On top of this, rake allows it (in this case) to continue attacking with two claws. In essence, this allows the tiger to continue its normal full-attack routine while grappling (but see final note below).

Not exactly. If you choose to "lock on" with just that attack and take a -20 penalty, you will continue doing damage with just that attack and maintain that "hold" as a free action. If you instead choose to start a normal grapple without the -20, you can use whichever natural attack (typically bite) to do damage in subsequent turns, as you are in a completely normal grapple.

Reference:
Grab in Bestiary 2

As for getting rake attacks when "locked on" with just one attack and not having the grappled condition, I'm not going to open that can of worms...


jorgenporgen wrote:

Not exactly. If you choose to "lock on" with just that attack and take a -20 penalty, you will continue doing damage with just that attack and maintain that "hold" as a free action. If you instead choose to start a normal grapple without the -20, you can use whichever natural attack (typically bite) to do damage in subsequent turns, as you are in a completely normal grapple.

Reference:
Grab in Bestiary 2

Yes. Well. The bite does more damage so there would be little reason to use a claw instead. The end result is still that you can have a full 'normal' attack routine of bite/claw/claw, even while grappling, thanks to rake. Or you could do claw/claw/claw if you really wanted.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Several questions regarding the Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger) attacks. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions