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So I GM a group of Kingmakers and we ran into a a situation. Leaving out the story specifics, here's the mechanics of what happened. NPC cast calm emotions on the party, everyone fails their save. The PC oracle wants to know if he can cast rage on the barbarian to counter the effects of calm emotions. I tell him no, as the spell description clearly says that calm emotions suppresses the effects of a barbarian's rage ability (and to me that means during the duration of the spell - concentration up to 1/round per level). Another player says that he can do it, as calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd level spell, so rage automatically beats calm emotions. I disagreed. He swears that one of the designers from Paizo put on the boards (and he's a regular poster here) that the effects of lower level spells are automatically cancelled by higher leveled spells. He even said that you could cast any 3rd level spell or higher in a silenced area because silence is a 2nd level spell! Is this right? Makes no sense to me. I couldn't find it in the Core Rulebook, so I ruled that rage doesn't cancel calm emotions. Also, does any other GM here usually allow rulings from 'the boards' without any official errata to back it up?
With absolutely no "proof" I don't think higher level spells automatically negate lower level unless it specifically states so, like with lighting effects. Now as a DM you have to make a call. If a 5th level spell was used to negate a 1st level spell I think I'd rule that a 5th level is just so much more powerful than a first that it overpowers it. WIthin one or two spell levels though, it's a toss up. Though mechanically low level spells often negate higher level spells. Shield (wiz1) still negates magic missile even if that MM has been raised to a 5th level spell slot.
Short version, DM call but I say you made the right one.
I can't find anything in the book that says that higher level spells automatically cancel lower level spells. But I did find this (under Combining Magic Effects:
Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell's description.
So both spells still apply. And since Calm Emotions prevents you from getting morale bonuses from the Rage spell, the only thing the Rage spell will give you is a -2 to AC (as that is an untyped penalty).
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With absolutely no "proof" I don't think higher level spells automatically negate lower level unless it specifically states so, like with lighting effects.
Right, that's what i told the players, that unless the spell description specifically says otherwise, it shouldn't cancel it out just because its lower on the spell list.
you were right, partly.
He could have casted rage, but it would be immediatly suppressed (it's still there, but doesn't work), and if calm emotion ends before rage does, then the person is enraged till that spell ends.
Higher level beating lower level is not a general rule, it exists for light spells, a light spell that's higher than a darkness spell in effect overwrites it for the area it illuminates.
Except for light (daylight, darkness, deeper darkness), exept if the spell description states exceptions, then the spell is not automaticly supressed by spell that does the contrary. And even those light spells have this exception noted in their description.
p.s. No I don't allow hearsay from this board. If someone brings it up, I would still overrule it, until I had time to read what's written on this board. Even Paizo staff themselves encourage to houserule things as you like, as you are the most competent person to bring fun into your own games.
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you were right, partly.
He could have casted rage, but it would be immediatly suppressed (it's still there, but doesn't work), and if calm emotion ends before rage does, then the person is enraged till that spell ends.
Actually that's exactly what I told the oracle player. that calm emotions 'suppresses' rage, and he could have cast it, just wouldn't have taken effect until calm emotions ended. it was the other player who insisted that it should automatically cancel calm emotions since it was a 3rd level spell.
Also, does any other GM here usually allow rulings from 'the boards' without any official errata to back it up?
I run my game how I want to. If I want something to work a certain away, thats how it works. I don't care if its been errated (in fact, I pretty much ignore all errata) or a developer says it doesn't work like how I want it. It's my game, not theirs.
Also, does any other GM here usually allow rulings from 'the boards' without any official errata to back it up?
I do if I know it is something that will be in the next errata or a developer is giving intent, most of the time. I don't want to add too many houserules so sometimes I use the book(official or intended version) even if I don't agree with it.
My players are not here that much, but even if they were they would have to show me the page, and just tell me "this is how it works because _____ said so."
I have had to many misquotes, and misunderstandings, normally from not reading an entire paragraph.
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sirmattdusty, by RAW you played it exactly right.
Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some
spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell’s description.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any
morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and
rage, and also negates a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a
barbarian’s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and
removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell
lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When
the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold
of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in
the meantime.
Each affected creature gains a +2 morale bonus to Strength and
Constitution, a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, and a –2 penalty to
AC. The effect is otherwise identical with a barbarian’s rage except
that the subjects aren’t fatigued at the end of the rage.
There is no indication in the Rage spell description that it counters Calm Emotions, so it doesn't. Your player is quoting rules that only exist in his head. What is even sillier is that your player believes that a 20th level Barbarian can have his rage shut down by this spell, but a 5th level Wizard can automatically counter it. Strangely, a bard (of any level) can't, because Rage is a 2nd level spell for him. Your player is full of hooey.
Its not a rule, its a general guideline and design philosophy that is not always adhered to.
I'm not sure if Rage can dispel the calm emotions for everyone, but i'm pretty sure it can nullify the effects on the barbarian.
From the magic chapter
Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell's description.
So your player is right, rage + calm emotions= back to normal barbarian.
So I GM a group of Kingmakers and we ran into a a situation. Leaving out the story specifics, here's the mechanics of what happened. NPC cast calm emotions on the party, everyone fails their save. The PC oracle wants to know if he can cast rage on the barbarian to counter the effects of calm emotions. I tell him no, as the spell description clearly says that calm emotions suppresses the effects of a barbarian's rage ability (and to me that means during the duration of the spell - concentration up to 1/round per level). Another player says that he can do it, as calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd level spell, so rage automatically beats calm emotions. I disagreed. He swears that one of the designers from Paizo put on the boards (and he's a regular poster here) that the effects of lower level spells are automatically cancelled by higher leveled spells. He even said that you could cast any 3rd level spell or higher in a silenced area because silence is a 2nd level spell! Is this right? Makes no sense to me. I couldn't find it in the Core Rulebook, so I ruled that rage doesn't cancel calm emotions. Also, does any other GM here usually allow rulings from 'the boards' without any official errata to back it up?
There is no rule that states higher level spells automatically cancel lower-level spells. As others have stated this would have to be specifically called out in the spell's descriptions.
In the case of calm emotions and rage combination calm emotion automatically suppresses rage, but once it runs out the other spell takes effect again.And yes, silence stops all sound, even if it was from a 9th level spell. It's a fantastic spell against casters who often don't memorize spells with a silent spells feat ;-)
So you were right in your decision.
I usually do not allow rulings that are not in official erratas or FAQs. If a developer posts about a specific topic which is unclear in the rules, I usually allow it, but not if it contradicts official rules and is not errataed.
So given all of this, do you think detect magic - a 0 level cantrip - shoul be able to detect invisibility or if someone is under an enchantment?
As far as invisibility goes, yes, it works to detect it. However, the invisible person can move, when they see whoever is casting concentrating on a certain area or overhears the party discussion.
It should be able to detect magical enchantments, since that is the point of detect magic. However, it takes 3 rounds to do a full reading so the enchanted person could run... there are also many spells that supress things like detect evil/magic.
So given all of this, do you think detect magic - a 0 level cantrip - shoul be able to detect invisibility or if someone is under an enchantment?As far as invisibility goes, yes, it works to detect it. However, the invisible person can move, when they see whoever is casting concentrating on a certain area or overhears the party discussion.
It should be able to detect magical enchantments, since that is the point of detect magic. However, it takes 3 rounds to do a full reading so the enchanted person could run... there are also many spells that supress things like detect evil/magic.
Or the wiz can cast arcane sight.
if i read detect magic right, a 5 foot step wouldn't be allowed without ending the spell as it takes a standard action to relocate the area of effect
I think you can concentrate with a standard action, so as long as you keep the area in your cone, you should be fine, even with a move action. Or what do you mean?
cant remember off the top of my head but which spells suppress detect magic?
Magic aura for example.
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if i read detect magic right, a 5 foot step wouldn't be allowed without ending the spell as it takes a standard action to relocate the area of effect
I think you can concentrate with a standard action, so as long as you keep the area in your cone, you should be fine, even with a move action. Or what do you mean?
Magic aura for example.
cant remember off the top of my head but which spells suppress detect magic?
ooops nevermind it says that you can turn once each round to move the area of detect magic - no type of movement indicated. so guess that's a free action, as long as you concentrate
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Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell's description.
So your player is right, rage + calm emotions= back to normal barbarian.
The player isn't claiming that Calm Emotions would counter Rage. If he did, he would be correct. It says so. Right in the spell description for Calm Emotions.
He's claiming the Rage counters Calm Emotions, which it doesn't. There is nothing in the spell description for Rage that indicates that it does.
So, a raging Barbarian targeted with Calm Emotions is no longer raging. If he is then subjected to a Rage spell, it has no effect on him, until the duration of the Calm Emotions spell expires. He can't be made to rage.
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his biggest argument is that calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd, therefore rage should trump calm emotions. he's a big proponant of invisibility and charm person not being detected by detect magic and high level sonic spells working in silenced areas. his example was using wish to make a barbarian rage that's under calm emotions - how could a measly little 3rd level spell resist the power of a 9th level spell he asked. i told him that wish only duplicates the spell rage and therefore still under the same mechanics as the 3rd level version of it. i still don't think he's very happy with that ruling. and this guy isn't a newbie either, he practically has the corebook memorized.....
his biggest argument is that calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd, therefore rage should trump calm emotions. he's a big proponant of invisibility and charm person not being detected by detect magic and high level sonic spells working in silenced areas. his example was using wish to make a barbarian rage that's under calm emotions - how could a measly little 3rd level spell resist the power of a 9th level spell he asked. i told him that wish only duplicates the spell rage and therefore still under the same mechanics as the 3rd level version of it. i still don't think he's very happy with that ruling. and this guy isn't a newbie either, he practically has the corebook memorized.....
Well,the 9th level wish could produce a version of rage that does cancel calm emotions, after all wish can do a lot. But unless he specifies it, you are correct in your interpretation :-)
By his logic, all lower level spells would become irrelevant later on, making being a caster really a bad thing - unless you only oppose martial characters...Hestarts to seem like a munchkin who only cites the pieces of the crb which are relevant to him :-/ Even then I do not know of anything that supports his generalized statement, so you are right in your assessment.
If he insists on it, ask him to show you the rule which he is referring to. I would be really surprised if he could do that ;-)
his biggest argument is that calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd, therefore rage should trump calm emotions. he's a big proponant of invisibility and charm person not being detected by detect magic and high level sonic spells working in silenced areas. his example was using wish to make a barbarian rage that's under calm emotions - how could a measly little 3rd level spell resist the power of a 9th level spell he asked. i told him that wish only duplicates the spell rage and therefore still under the same mechanics as the 3rd level version of it. i still don't think he's very happy with that ruling. and this guy isn't a newbie either, he practically has the corebook memorized.....
So, by your player's logic, where does that leave Dispel Magic?
Point out to him that on page 272 it specifically mentions using Dispel Magic (3rd level spell) targeting Stone Skin (4th level spell).
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his biggest argument is that calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd, therefore rage should trump calm emotions. he's a big proponent of invisibility and charm person not being detected by detect magic and high level sonic spells working in silenced areas. his example was using wish to make a barbarian rage that's under calm emotions - how could a measly little 3rd level spell resist the power of a 9th level spell he asked. i told him that wish only duplicates the spell rage and therefore still under the same mechanics as the 3rd level version of it. i still don't think he's very happy with that ruling. and this guy isn't a newbie either, he practically has the core book memorized.....
Well they're either silly, delusional, cheating or pulling your leg. You know them better to make that distinction. His game would make heighten spell an amazing feat, probably one required to be considered a competent spell caster.
Yeah, Detect Magic after 3 rounds can detect auras for spells and the locations of those auras. You don't get the exact spell though, or get to actually see through an illusion. Of course the skill Sense Motive can detect people under enchantment effects too and that's not even magic at all.
(For players who for some reason hate the incredibly ineffective tactic of wasting 3 rounds hoping someone is invisible in a 60' cone, I suggest a house rule of having the spell count as interacting with the illusion and allowing for a will save to see the aura. You know how some people can whine.)
his biggest argument is that calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd, therefore rage should trump calm emotions. he's a big proponent of invisibility and charm person not being detected by detect magic and high level sonic spells working in silenced areas. his example was using wish to make a barbarian rage that's under calm emotions - how could a measly little 3rd level spell resist the power of a 9th level spell he asked. i told him that wish only duplicates the spell rage and therefore still under the same mechanics as the 3rd level version of it. i still don't think he's very happy with that ruling. and this guy isn't a newbie either, he practically has the core book memorized.....Well they're either silly, delusional, cheating or pulling your leg. You know them better to make that distinction. His game would make heighten spell an amazing feat, probably one required to be considered a competent spell caster.
Yeah, Detect Magic after 3 rounds can detect auras for spells and the locations of those auras. You don't get the exact spell though, or get to actually see through an illusion. Of course the skill Sense Motive can detect people under enchantment effects too and that's not even magic at all.
(For players who for some reason hate the incredibly ineffective tactic of wasting 3 rounds hoping someone is invisible in a 60' cone, I suggest a house rule of having the spell count as interacting with the illusion and allowing for a will save to see the aura. You know how some people can whine.)
But at least you can find invisible objects that way. And if someone is standing still you can still find him.
Of course, see invisibility or invisibility purge beats that - as does a high perception skill (skill (focus) perception plus alertness go a long way there) :-)|
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his biggest argument is that calm emotions is a 2nd level spell and rage is a 3rd, therefore rage should trump calm emotions. he's a big proponant of invisibility and charm person not being detected by detect magic and high level sonic spells working in silenced areas. his example was using wish to make a barbarian rage that's under calm emotions - how could a measly little 3rd level spell resist the power of a 9th level spell he asked. i told him that wish only duplicates the spell rage and therefore still under the same mechanics as the 3rd level version of it. i still don't think he's very happy with that ruling. and this guy isn't a newbie either, he practically has the corebook memorized.....
Just hit him with a CRB and then tell him to read the magic chapter. Run the game your way until he either shows his proof AND you get a chance (oog) to go over it and decide for yourself if thats what works for your campaign. When you tell your players your decision just be consistant, even if they whine or sulk if you choose against their assumptions.
--Vrock the House