I have been toying with this idea for some time now for my upcoming PF game, and I was thinking about allowing my players to start at 2nd lvl, and allow them to multi-class into the classes from D20 Modern IE; Strong, Dedicated, Charismatic and so on.
After reading across the materials, I have tightened up some of the rules that would have changed from Modern to PF, and I was just wondering what others had to say about something like this.
Good idea, bad idea, suggestions and the like.
I am not looking to make a modern game using PF, but rather I want to bring the classes, and all associated skills/feats, into PF. Like having a Strong 4/Barbarian 3 or a Dedicated 4/ Paladin 3 types. Just was looking for more ways to expand the characters without making a ton of PrC, Archetypes, or anything along that line.
The Modern classes would be adjusted of course for a setting appropriate to the world I am running the game in, but it would also afford the Talents, Bonus Feats, BaB, Saves, Def Bonus as well as "Rep" (something I am working into the game, much like it is used in World of Warcraft, basic allegorical reference).
I am also toying with the idea of allowing the Modern class to raise it's associated attribute at each even level IE; Strong add 1 to Str, Quick add to Dex and so on but only on the Modern levels, not the PF class levels.
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I understand what you're trying to do. I like the way the modern classes work with Talents that you can choose instead of set class features.
While I haven't ported them over to PF. I have been working on converting the old 2e Dark Sun adventure modules into Post-Apocalyptic d20 modern, so I have started consolidating talent trees and tweaking the available feats, spells, etc. to fit the setting.
There are a lot of d20 modern supplements out there which have additional Talent trees that can work in a non-modern setting. The Game Mechanics published quite a few of these.
In my opinion, it would be awesome if all of the PF class features became talent trees (or at least advanced classes for the less general classes). That way you could customize your character however you wanted as long as you had the prereqs.
I've toyed with doing this, but haven't found a good way of making it work yet, especially without really hurting the casters.
One thing I do like about using the d20 modern base and advanced classes is that if you want to run a low magic world, using these classes caps out spellcasting at 5th level spells. Advancement after that (Archmage class?) just gets you more spells known and spells per day.
Hmm... While it's potentially an interesting idea, you may have trouble convincing your players that it's worth taking levels in the modern classes. As I recall, everything in d20 modern is underpowered as compared to D&D or Pathfinder; that only gets worse when you notice the huge incentives for going straight in a single class that Paizo has written into the progression of each class.
Allowing a stat bump for the modern classes is a start towards fixing that problem, but even with that I have trouble thinking of any three levels of dedicated hero that I'd rather have than three levels of cleric (for instance). If a lower power game is your goal, then this may work for you. I'll admit that I'm slightly biased against d20 modern (every game we've ever tried with the system has been, well, boring), but at least make sure your players are interested before you do all the work.
If your players like the idea, then go for it. If they have doubts but you really like the idea, consider a compromise. It could be pretty neat if you used an alternative Gestalt rule - you could require that the players' "gestalt" class be some combination of d20 modern classes. It'd keep the feel of a high fantasy pathfinder game while still allowing some extra variation.
I did some thinking and as for "class skills" I am thinking about allowing all associated skills, IE; Str for Strong and Dex for Quick, to be class skills. That way if someone wants to play a tactician type fighter, they could take Smart, and gain all Int based skills as class skills for the Smart hero and go from there.
Like I said, this is still in the rough stages, any constructive criticisms and possible ideas for other things to consider, are always appreciated.
As I recall, everything in d20 modern is underpowered as compared to D&D or Pathfinder; that only gets worse when you notice the huge incentives for going straight in a single class that Paizo has written into the progression of each class.
For the most part that not really true, its spell casters (and their ilk) that are underpowered in Modern. Some combination of classes can get downright brutal in comparison to some Fantasy builds.
For example a 1st Level Fighter compared to a 1st Level Strong Hero with the Military Occupation (Chosen Skills: Move Silently, Hide; Chosen Feat: Light Armor Proficiency) and the Melee Smash Talent, the Strong “Soldier” is more dangerous.
Melee Smash grant a +1 bonus to damage to ALL melee attacks, and can be improved twice (at either 3rd, 5th, 7th, or 9th) for a final total of +3 damage to melee.
This means before a Fighter even gets the option for Weapon Specialization a 3rd level Strong Hero gets the same bonus to all melee attacks. The fact that at 5th level you are equal (in Damage) to a Fighter with both Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training (normal one at least) but get it with any melee attack (including unarmed strikes) is no small feat…plus in terms of attack you are only one point behind the Fighter because of the +1 from weapon training.
The +1 Defense Bonus works all the time and when wearing the most defensive Light Armor (Undercover Vest; DEF +3; Max DEX +5; ACP -2) is not much different than a Fighter in Chainmail…then at level 2 you are better than a guy wearing Scale Mail (lower ACP and higher Max Dex and no Speed Penalty); to say nothing of the fact that in Modern you can apply the Mastercraft bonus to any attribute (except ACP) to the max of +3.
Its possible to purchase a +3 Defense Undercover Vest at level 1, albeit its expensive to do so, which means that the your Strong Hero is better than a Fighter in Branded Mail (which is a Heavy Armor)!
…At level two you purchase a +3 Defense Heavy Shield…which will be followed by you GM killing you to death with kobolds firing tripod-mounted RPG’s ^-^.
Just as an example of course, going into fuller detail will require more work.
THe modern classes are very weak compared to even a 3.5 base-class. Against a pathfinder base-class they're almost non entities. I wouldn't want to be saddled with a class that wasn't doing anything but slowing down my progression.
THe modern classes are very weak compared to even a 3.5 base-class. Against a pathfinder base-class they're almost non entities. I wouldn't want to be saddled with a class that wasn't doing anything but slowing down my progression.
I am not working against the PF, but with them. I am not saddling anyone with anything, but this would be a choice that the players could make, and they do actually add a lot if you looked into what it would mean with the ability score increase at even levels, the talents and bonus feats, let alone the hit point adjustments and everything else. The Modern classes would actually add a lot. IE; look at Magus Black's post.
Saves were lower (across the board, bonus and DCs), higher skills were assumed, and the 3.0 lack of feats per level.
Despite Magus Black's note about the ideal situation, most talents can't compete with the base classes, and the lower statistics hurt the advancement of the class.
Multiclassing also hurts gaining access to later class abilities (which are designed to work for the level that you'd gain them had you not multi-classed), so it's a losing strategy overall in 99% of situations.
If I were wanting to spice things up with modern classes, I'd seriously consider letting people play Gestalt characters, but only letting them access the Modern classes as their secondary classes.
Do you have a site link? I love d20 Modern and continually am seeking ways to update it to Pathfinder rules.
"Saves were lower (across the board, bonus and DCs), higher skills were assumed, and the 3.0 lack of feats per level."
Actually, when you look at the Feat Progression for Modern was 5 by 10th level, which was the class cap per individual classes, and in PF you have 5 by 10th as well. So no loss there.