The Double Pistol, Vital Strike, and the Deadshot Deed.

[Edinoiz]

So, for the Gunslinger class, which I admit has made me stoked, I realised that there is this nifty little combination of feets and deeds that could make it rather... painful against nearly everything.

The first question I have is this: How do you gain more attacks with the gunslinger when it comes to using two or more pistols? There was a mention of the Two Weapon Fighting feat somewhere in the UC, but I can't find it now, so how does rapid shot work?

The reason for this is that I want to know the maximum number of possible attacks per round, disregarding the need to reload, as this affects the Deadshot Deed.

Assuming a BAB of
+16/+11/+6/+1
this would give
+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1
with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Adding Rapid Shot, if possible, would make this
+12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3
of potential[/d] attacks that can be done as long as the Gunslinger uses twin pepper boxes or could just draw and fire pistols until the number of attacks have been reached.

For the unknowing; Deadshot is a fullround action that costs 1 Grit Point and allows you to roll a number of attack rolls equal to the maximum number of potential fire arm attacks you could do in a round, need to reload ignored, and then for each attack roll that hits you add the amount of damage die you get from firing the weapon in the first place in a similar manner to Vital Strike.

When using this wielding two normal one-shot pistols, would the
+12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3
still be the number of attack rolls for Deadshot?

Since this, to my knowledge, is only a single attack action (a fullround attack but still a single attack) would it not be possible to use Vital Strike with this as well? If yes, would vital strike simply add another set of damage die to the damage roll or would it add the total number of damage die given? The latter seems extremely overpowered, not something I would allow as a GM, but I want some input on it.

Considering the vs-touch-AC-within-first-range-increment property of nearly all firearms, the +6 to hit one is likely to get from Dexterity at that level, including the modifier for Point-Blank Shot, and the minimum +1 that both weapons would have at that level the final number of rolls would look something like
+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6.

Assuming a standard AC value of 31 for CR 16, and then that out of this the touch AC is roughly 21 the hit percentages would be
95/95/95/80/80/55/55/30
which on average means that at least 7 rolls good enough to hit.

The Double-Barrelled Pistol has the property that both barrels can be fired at once with a -4 penalty to hit but doubling the damage done, this would in Deadshot mean
+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
or in percentage vs 21 touch AC be
85/85/85/60/60/35/35/10
an average of 5 successive attack rolls.

Damage wise, only by dice, this would in combination with Greater Vital Strike (according to the non-OP way) be a total of 49.5 damage (1d8+10d8) for single shot and 81 damage (2d8+16d8) for a double-shot, on average. This is before weapon properties like flaming, enhancement bonus, pistol training bonuses (pistolero archetype), Up Close and Deadly (pistolero archetype), etc, are added in.

If I am correct on Double-Shot then properties like flaming and enhancement bonus to damage would double as the projectile number doubles while pistol training (hitting where it hurts) and Up Close and Deadly Deed (the former, only better) would only be applied once.

so for funsies sake, assuming only one energy damage property on the +1 DB Pistol, we have a total of
1d8+1+1+8 +10d8+5d6 (Enhancement+PB Shot+Pistol Training +Deadshot+GV Strike+UC and Deadly+Flaming)
which averages at [b]77 damage in one shot.
2d8+2+1+8+6 +16d8+6d6 (Enhancement+PB Shot+Pistol Training+Devastating Strikes +Deadshot+GV Strike+UC and Deadly+Flaming)
which averages at 119 damage in one shot.

And this is not taking into account that Deadshot Critical Threatens should even one attack roll result in a crit (but you confirm it with your highest BAB-5, decreasing the penalty by 1 per additional critical threat you get).

So yes, some help here, is this even viable?

P.S. I assume the double-shot to send the bullets close enough together that the damage is added together prior to applying DR.

[drowranger80]

Personally I would only allow one guns worth of attacks with deadeye shot, just seems to make more common sense to me. But I would allow rapid sho ect.

[Grey Lensman]

Maybe one extra attack worth for the second barrel. But that's it.

[Roaming Shadow]

First, I'm pretty sure the Dead Shot only allows the firing of one gun, not both, as it allows a single shot, not one shot per firearm. So I would say no on TWF a Deadeye Shot. You only get the attacks you could make with that firearm.

Rapid Shot works just fine, as it totals the number of attacks you could make as part of a full round action, and Rapid Shot applies to that total.

Second, no, I do not believe Vital Strike can apply. The feat says when you use "the attack action", not "an attack action". The "attack action" is a standard action, and I believe that distinction is there for a reason. So you can't use it on Dead Shot.

Continueing on with Vital Strike, it is also my belief that it doesn't work with a double shot from a double barrel weapon. While the double barrel weapons are each worded differently for some strange reason, the double barrel pistol says you fire both barrels as one action, and you make a seperate attack with each barrel. Vital Strike says, "When you use the attack action, you can make one attack". Firing both barrels, though it's one action, is two attacks, and so cannot qualify for the use of Vital Strike. However, as you can make a double shot on every attack of an iterative attack were you making a full round action, I believe that number of attack would apply to Dead Shot. The deed is looking at all the attacks you could potentially make as part of a full round action, and a double barreled weapon allows you to make many more attacks, albeit normally at a notable penalty.

However, because it is two completely seperate attack rolls, just all part of one action where you'd normally only get one attack, I also believe all damage is added to each bullet seperately. Unlike Many Shot and double crossbows, which require only one attack roll for two hits, a double shot requires two seperate attack rolls, making each barrel independent of each other. The is no damage clause on any of the double barreled weapons as there is with the double crossbow or the Manyshot feat.

As to the PS, no, they are two seperate attack, so DR gets applied to both seperately.

PS: personally, I'm working on a Scout archetype rogue with a double barrel pistol or double barrled shot with sniper goggles. Move 10ft, get Sneak Attack at any range. That applies to both barrels of a double shot, as again, there is not clause like the double crossbow or Manyshot feat. For a double barrel shotgun that's 2 attacks against Touch AC up to 100ft for 2d8+modifiers+sneak attack. Not bad for a standard action.

[Edinoiz]

Actually the only thing that Deadshot states is that the Gunslinger makes as many attack rolls as she can. However, and this I did not notice until now, this is based on her BAB and will at level 16 never amount to more attacks than 4 compared to the possible 8 that I thought were possible. Eight attacks per round are still possible but then the two firearms will need to have a capacity of at least 4 each or any such combination.

I agree with Vital Strike and Deadshot, they do not mix. Vital Strike and Double-Shot however would.

The entry for the Double-Barreled Musket notes that firing both barrels at once is a single attack with a -4 to hit, while the entry for the Double-Barreled Pistol notes that firing both barrels at once is a single action with a -4 to hit. A single action. A single attack action. The attack action?

The wording for the DB-Musket seems to imply that it is possible to Vital Strike with it as it is a single attack, and thus a single action, to fire both barrels.

The wording on the DB-pistol is different however:

Paizo Publishing - Ultimate Combat wrote:

Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

As seen above it is a single action to fire both barrels from the pistol at once, and what kind of actions are used to fire a pistol in combat? The attack action of course! The part about both barrels needing to strike the same foe is most likely just an insurance so that people do not use their standard attack action double-shot to fire at both the goblin in their face and the troll harassing your cleric.

Thus I would say, on the virtue of the Double-Shot being a single action and that attacks made with a single normal action are using the attack action, that DB-Shot and Vital Strike

It is however clear to me that this dispute is unlikely to end until an errata or until an official statement have been released

[Roaming Shadow]

Personally, I just think the wording of the double barreled weapons isn't very clear. I actually asked about a double barreled shotgun and vital strike and coulnd't get two people to come up with a similar opinion. Of course, that one got a lot of people drawing their "nerf hammer", ignoring my question on what the rules were in favor of saying "that's too powerful, so we must nerf it." This is because for the double barreled shotgun, when using double shot, each individual barrel increases in damage from 1d8 to 2d8, and Vital Strike would then mean each barrel is doing 4d8 damage. The only thing most people agreed on was that it was too powerful, which was beside the point to my original question.

I am not going to say that my interpretation is "right", as that would be foolish. Interpretation is an offshoot of opinion, after all. But that is my interpretation of the rules. The way I read it, you're making two attacks in place of one when you'd normally be able to make a single attack, albeit with a -4 penalty to each attack. The fact that both must be at the same target is a matter of logic more than balance; both barrels go off at the exact same time, so both barrels are aiming at the same thing when they go off. It's not a double tap, but two simultaneous attacks. Remember, Attack is an entry under Standard Actions, but there are other ways in which one can attack, such as a Full Attack, or through feats like Whirlwind Attack.

Again, the wording in the entries is terrible in my opinion, and all three weapon descriptions for double shot ought to read the same. But they don't, and they're not really clear as to how they interact with other rules and feats. This is a matter that better be erratad/clarified in the near future.

[drowranger80]

While I am totaly stocked to try out the fireamr rules, a lot of it is vague and poorly worded. Concider the reloading rules, and how nothing says how rapid reload or lightning reload ineracts with advanced firearms

[Edinoiz]

Just took a peek in UC.

Rapid/lightning reload reduces the action required to load firearms by one step, making the Move action required to reload an advanced firearm into a free action.

On the topic of the DB-Shotgun I kind of agree. I find it strange that by firing both barrels at once you gain a quadruple damage increase, another topic for the Errata. Personally I'd DM it to be only an x2 increase.

It also seems strange that the DB-Musket has range increments of 10ft while the normal Musket has 40ft. Compare those to the pistols where both Single and DB-Pistol have 20ft increments.

An Errata is needed, there are more than likely more faults in the UC than these.