I have tried to put this together myself honestly I have but maybe I am over thinking it or whatever but I could really use some help here...
I joined a campaign and its using everthing including the inner seas stuff that came out and we start out at lvl 5 and I decided that I wanted to be a Human Paladin/ Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer/ Dragon Discipline. Our party is missing Melee so I was wanted to focus the melee aspect of my paladin with the sorcerer in there just to I can get my dragon discipline (Dragon form and breath of course :P)So would I start off like a 4 paladin/1 sorcerer and put a level into DD at level 6? or would I be a 3 paladin / 1 sorcerer / 1 Dragon Discipline?
And with my rolls my stats would be 18Str/ 15Cha/15Con/13Dex/8Wis. And I would put my bonus ability score mods into Cha.
Also would I have to have a 7th level DD to gain access to Dragon Form? or when I hit level 7 is that what I unlock?
Quick note: have you thought about bard instead of that sorcerer level? You can still take dd but cast in armor and have the bard spells ;-)
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Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple is very good for those stats, particularly because you want that CHA score to shore up your Will save.
I'd definitely go 4 Paladin/1 Sorcerer, and that way you're prepared to take Dragon Disciple as your fifth level. Four levels gives you a second Smite Evil/day, which is only a good thing. (Don't forget that you need to know Draconic, something that most characters need INT 12 or a point of Linguistics to do)
You may consider using a one-handed weapon and a quick-draw shield. You're going to have claws and a bite, and that's a powerful combination at low levels. At level six, you can use a one-handed weapon in one hand and bite, clawing with the other hand or defending with your shield; alternatively, you have the option of using two hands on your weapon to get 1.5xSTR bonus and extra power attack.
I'd recommend still spell as a feat, so you can get some short-duration buffs up in armour, and I'd also say that you should definitely wear armour, although mithral as soon as you can get it. The protection and the low cost when compared with bracers of armor make it a better choice.
Quick note: have you thought about bard instead of that sorcerer level? You can still take dd but cast in armor and have the bard spells ;-)I have tried to put this together myself honestly I have but maybe I am over thinking it or whatever but I could really use some help here...
I joined a campaign and its using everthing including the inner seas stuff that came out and we start out at lvl 5 and I decided that I wanted to be a Human Paladin/ Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer/ Dragon Discipline. Our party is missing Melee so I was wanted to focus the melee aspect of my paladin with the sorcerer in there just to I can get my dragon discipline (Dragon form and breath of course :P)So would I start off like a 4 paladin/1 sorcerer and put a level into DD at level 6? or would I be a 3 paladin / 1 sorcerer / 1 Dragon Discipline?
And with my rolls my stats would be 18Str/ 15Cha/15Con/13Dex/8Wis. And I would put my bonus ability score mods into Cha.
Also would I have to have a 7th level DD to gain access to Dragon Form? or when I hit level 7 is that what I unlock?
I have to agree here. If you're only going to take one level of Sorcerer just to get into Dragon Disciple, you might as well get the requirement for casting 1st level arcane spells from Bard. That one level grants you a lot of useful low level abilities.
Paladin 4/Bard 1, then DD levels from there. However many you want. Cha would still be an important stat for you, so don't make it too low. At DD level 7, (character level 12 if you keep going after level 5) you can turn into a small dragon of whichever type you chose at DD level 1.
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(Don't forget that you need to know Draconic, something that most characters need INT 12 or a point of Linguistics to do)Oh yeah.... So I would have to take a feat or a trait that gives me the draconic language right?
(Planning on putting the +2 ability score from Human race into INT and putting the lvl 4 +1 into Cha)
No, don't put that +2 into INT. What's your character's INT score anyway? To learn Draconic, put one skill rank into Linguistics, and then write "Draconic" under your character's languages known.
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You can get claw/claw/bite as a bard/DD as well, you just won't get Smite Evil, your CHA bonus to saves, and you'll be using the bard spell list as opposed to the sorcerer's. Personally I think the Paladin/Sorcerer Dragon Disciple is better, but the ability to cast in light armour is important to some people. The Paladin version also has +2 higher BAB than the Bard's, ending at +16/+11/+6/+1, as opposed to +14/+9/+4. Something to consider if iterative attacks are important to you, or you want to qualify for BAB-needed feats faster.
You can get claw/claw/bite as a bard/DD as well, you just won't get Smite Evil, your CHA bonus to saves, and you'll be using the bard spell list as opposed to the sorcerer's. Personally I think the Paladin/Sorcerer Dragon Disciple is better, but the ability to cast in light armour is important to some people. The Paladin version also has +2 higher BAB than the Bard's, ending at +16/+11/+6/+1, as opposed to +14/+9/+4. Something to consider if iterative attacks are important to you, or you want to qualify for BAB-needed feats faster.
The first time you can take dragon disciple is at level 6, so you will gain your dragon disciple during the campaign. Why do you want to take the paladin levels if you only take a few ones? Just trying to understand.
I can see several ways to get into Dragon Disciple (shown until level 15):- Paladin [oath of vengeance] 1-4/Bard [arcane duelist] 1/Dragon Disciple 1-10/Whatever: oath of vengeance allows you to take extra lay on hands feat to get one extra smite each time. The arcane duelist nets you the cool rallying cry ability and arcane strike as a bonus feats. All knowledge skills are class skills, so you can easily gain those 5 in knowledge arcana you require, and putting one rank in linguistics to learn Draconic will be easy. Your saves will be great due to divine grace, and you have just gained the ability to cast paladin spells. BAB will be 4 at level 5.
- Paladin 1-2 /Bard [arcane duelist] 1-3/Dragon Disciple 1-10/Whatever: BAB will be 4 at level 5. You are less paladin and more bard, netting you combat casting as a feat and a lot more skill ranks
- Use some other martial class for the first few levels. Ranger or fighter are great, they both offer different advantages.
- Bard [arcane duelist] 1-5/Dragon Disciple 1-10/whatever: You gain a lot from the bard class and can enter dragon disciple directly. With magical knack as a trait you will not have a drop in caster level until DD level 9 - well, if you go that far in the first place. Since it's single class you can get most out of favored class bonus and such. If you're human, you can choose the bonus that grants you 1 extra spell at each level (1 level below the maximum level you can cast).
Sorcerer is, of course, an absolutely viable choice. Personally I find the bard choice better if you go for melee since the bard spell list has the best buffs in the game and can cast in light armor without problems. If you want to remain flexible, put many ranks into UMD (you can afford it with the bard skill points), and purchase wands and scrolls. You should be fine :-)
Im liking that one alot especially since I can keep the claws and bite attack for later on. but I was planning on taking the arcane armor training so that I could cast spells while in a Full Plate Mithril armor without having a penalty. i see myself more focused on combat then casting in this beginning stage so The casting in light armor doesnt seem that big of a bonus.You can get claw/claw/bite as a bard/DD as well, you just won't get Smite Evil, your CHA bonus to saves, and you'll be using the bard spell list as opposed to the sorcerer's. Personally I think the Paladin/Sorcerer Dragon Disciple is better, but the ability to cast in light armour is important to some people. The Paladin version also has +2 higher BAB than the Bard's, ending at +16/+11/+6/+1, as opposed to +14/+9/+4. Something to consider if iterative attacks are important to you, or you want to qualify for BAB-needed feats faster....
- Paladin [oath of vengeance] 1-4/Bard [arcane duelist] 1/Dragon Disciple 1-10/Whatever: oath of vengeance allows you to take extra lay on hands feat to get one extra smite each time. The arcane duelist nets you the cool rallying cry ability and arcane strike as a bonus feats. All knowledge skills are class skills, so you can easily gain those 5 in knowledge arcana you require, and putting one rank in linguistics to learn Draconic will be easy. Your saves will be great due to divine grace, and you have just gained the ability to cast paladin spells. BAB will be 4 at level 5.
Full plate has an ASF of 35%, mithral makes that 25%. Arcane armor mastery reduces that by 20%, so you will have 5% ASF left AND you burnt two feats on it. So you cannot cast arcane spells in that kind of armor without ASF. Personally I think that being able to cast in light armor which can be improved quite well is more than worth those two feat slots and spending your swift action which makes arcane strike unavailable to you :-/
Ahhhhhh I read the numbers wrong last night then haha. I see what you are getting at.
And activating the claws counts as a free action not a swift so I could use both in one turn.
Yes. But primarily you would like to use that swift action to use arcane strike or cast a quickened spell - you cannot do that when you use arcane armor training/mastery, which can be really frustrating.
Guess I am gonna be taking Bard for the buffs and the ability to cast in light armors. As feats Im thinking Toughness, Power attack, Cleave, and Weapon Focus on top of the arcane strike I get from the Arcane Duelist
I assume you'll put the +2 in cha, unless your stats assignment is not set - in that case I would reassign stats to optimize a bit.
Put your level 4 increase into cha to get that great +3 modifier - remember, it's added to your saves because of divine grace ;-)You get four feats in total. I would advise you do not take toughness at that level, but choose it as a your 2nd level DD bloodline bonus feat. Instead I would suggest improved initiative - acting first meaning you can buff yourself or your buddies.
Cleave is probably not worth it either, take extra lay on hands which you can convert into healing or an extra smite, so you'll probably have at least one smite available at each level.
Weapon focus is a nice feat, but the question is: What weapon do you choose it for? Though your claws are nice, you can use them only a very limited number of times each day, so they are more like a bonus IMO. If you want weapon focus, you might want to choose a high crit weapon such as a rapier and use a shield, or use a big two-handed weapon such as a greatsword for damage. How about bull rush? This way you can perform a combat maneuver, and your strength score as a DD makes it quite feasible. So you would have the following feats:
1 - improved initiative
1h - extra smite
3 - power attack
5 - bull rush
5b - arcane strike
Just ideas, your feat selection is not bad in any way :-) But I really advise against using weapon focus with your claws.
Personally I think armor is overrated for a DD. Eventually you'll be polymorphing and fighting mostly as a dragon. Unless you pay for the massively expensive wild enchantment you'll for the most part lose the benefits of the armor.
Get a good con score, and mage armor, shield spell and miss chance buffs will carry you until you get form of the dragon.
I have found armor to be extremely useful. After all, my characters don't always walk around polymorphed. And armor is always there and pretty cheap :-)
yeah My ability scores keep moving around haha. I am at a total ability score of 16STR/15DEX/15CON/10INT/18CHA/8WIS. and the weapon focus was gonna be on a Longsword and I have a Q/D shield for when I do not have claws on me. and I agree since the +4 possible hit points I get from toughness doesnt matter much I can switch that and cleave for the Initiative and Extra Smite feat but I would like to keep Weapon Focus for my Longsword and keep the attack of opportunity from bull rushing.
Sure, use the longsword, it's a great weapon :-) Weapon focus usually isn't worth it when you do not plan to take feats that build on it in my experience, though.
One thing you could do is assign those 8 to Int and 10 to Wis. Your low Wis will be balanced on the low level by the human skilled trait and later by the skill boost of the bard. And when you get the ability boost on intelligence from the dragon disciple you'll get it back. But this way you would not have reduced your will save which I think is quite important. But YMMV :-)
Keep in mind when choosing between bard and sorc for your arcane spells that with sorc, you can get abilities earlier through bloodline powers than you can with DD class abilities. This is due to the sorc level counting towards your sorc bloodline level, where bard does not. For instance, a sorc1\martial class 4 would have claws, where a bard1/martial class 4 would not claws until their first level of DD. This little boost may not matter to you that much, but it worth mentioning. Getting an ability, or a boost in uses per day can be useful.
Keep in mind when choosing between bard and sorc for your arcane spells that with sorc, you can get abilities earlier through bloodline powers than you can with DD class abilities. This is due to the sorc level counting towards your sorc bloodline level, where bard does not. For instance, a sorc1\martial class 4 would have claws, where a bard1/martial class 4 would not claws until their first level of DD. This little boost may not matter to you that much, but it worth mentioning. Getting an ability, or a boost in uses per day can be useful.I thought of that which is why it became such a hard choice but the bard lets me buff the parties total damage output and lets me enchant my weapons myself
You might want to get a silver smite bracelet - your smite becomes 5 levels more powerful then. It's in the APG. Will help you a lot :-)
Oh snap I didnt even know about that haha thanks! and Im dropping power attack and Extra lay on hands. since im not using my longsword in both my hands power attack cant be activated and im not taking the path of vengance path since Im keeping the channeled burst healing. So now I gotta decide replace them hahaYou might want to get a silver smite bracelet - your smite becomes 5 levels more powerful then. It's in the APG. Will help you a lot :-)Keep in mind when choosing between bard and sorc for your arcane spells that with sorc, you can get abilities earlier through bloodline powers than you can with DD class abilities. This is due to the sorc level counting towards your sorc bloodline level, where bard does not. For instance, a sorc1\martial class 4 would have claws, where a bard1/martial class 4 would not claws until their first level of DD. This little boost may not matter to you that much, but it worth mentioning. Getting an ability, or a boost in uses per day can be useful.I thought of that which is why it became such a hard choice but the bard lets me buff the parties total damage output and lets me enchant my weapons myself
Power attack can be used with your longsword, there is no problem. Your pal4/bard1/dd1 has a base attack bonus of +4, so you get a -2 to attack and +4 to damage with your longsword if you use it single-handed; -2 to attack and +6 if you use both hands for it (in addition to the increased strength bonus to damage for using both hands). So there is no probleem :-)
I'd say having Wis of 12 isnt a bad thing... don't discount that Paladins can cast in armour and Bless Weapon is a good spell even at mid to early high levels if you dont have a weapon with a holy property of its own.
I am not sure what you mean. Unlike D&D 3.5 paladins Pathfinder paladins cast using charisma, if that's what you're hinting at :-)
If your DM allows things from 3.5 I suggest Twilight Armor. Reduces ASF by 10% for a +1 enhancement bonus. If you do that, mithral reduces by another 10%, which should stack. Then fullplate is down to a 15% ASF chance, which is not terrible. You could take the feats to further reduce it. Of course, with the natural armor bonus of the DD at higher levels, it may be more worthwhile to just use mithral chain mail, which would have no ASF for you and adds up to a +9 total (same as a human in full plate).
*EDIT: If you are interested in twilight armor, it is found in Book of Exalted Deeds, and also mentioned as a footnote in PHB II under the duskblade.
Besides Twilight Armor, check with your GM if the 3.5 Battle Sorceror is allowed. (from Unearthed Arcana, at d20srd.org)
If the only reason for Bard is the Armored Casting, Battle Sorceror gives you that,
while not forcing Bardic Peformance and Spell List on you, and keeping your Bloodline that much higher.
There´s no reason it can´t be used with the PRPG Sorceror.
I like Bard/DD the most when you are going all Bard before entering DD (or at most 1 or 2 full martial), since you get more out of the Bard class features themselves. The Arcane Duelist is a decent Archetype there, or Magician as well (if you can time the levels right, you can progress thru DD, and then dip back into Bard for the level that you can gain any Wizard spell, i.e. from a higher spell level at that point). The Instant Dispel is another useful thing you can do mid-combat.
@James: Check my profile for the Hyundai Head-Smasher character.
He was a Barb2/Fighter3/Sorc1/DD4 (or something like that) character I ran in a PbP arena game here,
and you can run thru the entire game if you check his post history... (it lasted... 12 rounds?)
Having won a 4 v 4 PVP game when 2 of the opposing side´s casters won initiative and got off both Stinking Cloud and Black Tentacles on all of my side´s characters (with only myself being completely unaffected) made me think he worked out pretty OK. I had considered using Alchemist for even more STR instead of Dragon Disciple, but Dragon Disciple has nicer Will Saves and I just thought it was classier and had already set my mind on the idea. I don´t think it´s at all an un-viable build for regular play either, and you could have other broadly useful abilities instead of the Drunken archetype I used to slam Potions a little bit faster in the pre-buff rounds (which isn´t SO amazing given you still have to draw them). Let me know what you think of Hyundai vs. your expectations for Dragon Disciple. He could have 1 more DD level, but I found the 2-Handed Fighter ability nice for single attacks, especially in an arena context where I couldn´t make much use of an additional spell known.
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In my search for a new feat to replace Extra lay on hands I came across the "lighten Weapon" feat and I just thought of how cool it would be to use a large Greatsword in 2hands and roll a 3d6 damage haha.
The Pathfinder Core equivalent to that would be Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, and then wielding a Large Bastard Sword in two hands, albeit at a -2 penalty.
I would really ask you to reconsider a standard-sized Longsword, however. It's very versatile to be able to use something one or two-handed; consider that you could use a shield (quick-draw shield is a free action to stow on your back if you have the Quick-Draw feat) or have a claw attack, or you could grip your sword in two hands for the extra powerful single strike.
For Bard vs. Sorcerer, don't focus on the fact that the bard will get a little bit of performance, because in the end, it's a standard action for a +1 to your attack and damage. Most spells will give you much better, so focus on the difference between Sorcerer and Bard spells, and choose which you prefer.
For reference, at level 10 as a Paladin 4/Sorcerer 1/DD 5, you'll have a caster level of 4 and have access to level 2 Sorcerer spells, with a BAB of 7, two Smite Evils and CHA to saves. A Bard 5/DD 5 will have a higher caster level (8) and access to level 3 Bard spells, along with an almost as high BAB (6), but loses access to sorcerer-only spells such as Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, and Beast Shape(the first DD would be eligible for these at level 12).
The Bard DD gets better access to spells initially, but it comes down to whether you want to play more of a caster or a melee character.
Personally I think armor is overrated for a DD. Eventually you'll be polymorphing and fighting mostly as a dragon. Unless you pay for the massively expensive wild enchantment you'll for the most part lose the benefits of the armor.
Get a good con score, and mage armor, shield spell and miss chance buffs will carry you until you get form of the dragon.
The OP won't get Dragon Form for another 7 levels. Thats a LOOOONG wait. Mage Armor is certainly an option, but as a 1st level caster, it won't last all day, and that's a lot of wasted spells. I like the Bard idea too, as long as the OP is only taking the class to get the prereq for taking DD.
I was in a very similar situation it seems, up until recently, when my DD died. Sad story, never got to the point of dragon form. *tear*
Anyways, in my experience, the biggest problem is action economy. I needed to cast Mage Armor and shield before being able to survive in combat, and then take a turn to close the distance before I could start melee. Fortunately, I had a small group of 3-4 PC depending on the night, so some mobs were still alive by the fourth round. However, if you have a large group, you may feel useless by that point. I eventually gave up and bought heavy armor with one of my recently acquired fortunes. Gotta love selling to vendors with a ridiculously high diplomacy.
However, once I got into combat, I ripped things to pieces. My DD had gone the falchion/whirlwind attack line of fighting, along with a scabbard of keen edges. Add in lunge and a Wand of Enlarge Person, and everything in the room had a 25% chance to get Crit by a 24str paladin. It got messy.
Also, I was the only healer as well. After a couple of months, my group found it easier to just kill everything and then use wands to top off health after the fight. This was because with 4 people, we could not manage fights with one of our only melee fighters running around trying to lay on hands/ get in position for bursts. Also, not being a full paladin, you have very limited uses of lay on hands. This means that even if you do run around being a healer, you will only last a couple of fights before you run out of charges.
Sorry if it was a long posts. Just trying to give some insight and some things to consider while you build the character.
Personally, I wouldn't invest too much into those claws. I'm playing a draconic bloodline Sorcerer right now, and it has never been useful. The only time I break out the claws is if for some reason I don't have my weapon and I want to threaten an area in order to flank or provoke AoOs.
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I'd definitely go 4 Paladin/1 Sorcerer, and that way you're prepared to take Dragon Disciple as your fifth level. Four levels gives you a second Smite Evil/day, which is only a good thing.
Three levels of paladin plus silver smite bracelet gives plenty of smites and the extra damage to boot, but you could also go to 4th level and add the vengeance oath to your pally to get more smites per day (since your LoH are only 2d6 they are all but worthless later in levels).
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I'd definitely go 4 Paladin/1 Sorcerer, and that way you're prepared to take Dragon Disciple as your fifth level. Four levels gives you a second Smite Evil/day, which is only a good thing.Three levels of paladin plus silver smite bracelet gives plenty of smites and the extra damage to boot, but you could also go to 4th level and add the vengeance oath to your pally to get more smites per day (since your LoH are only 2d6 they are all but worthless later in levels).But I would also lose out on my channeled burst which deals damage to multiple enemies and heals multiple allies.
Also just wondering but has anyone tried something like this but with the Summoner class? for that eidolon
I would caution against Summoner. The Eidolon is really only powerful if it's able to advance, and it won't for all of your Dragon Disciple levels. The Summoner is far more useful as a pure class.
Your claws are not an unarmed strike, they're a natural attack. Two-weapon fighting doesn't work for those, you want to look at the Multiattack feat.
Keep in mind, if you combine weapon attacks with natural weapons, you do take two-weapon fighting penalties with your main weapon. Without TWF and Multiattack, you're at -6 with your main hand and -5 with your natural weapons. You need both TWF and Multiattack to reduce both penalties to -2.
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Your claws are not an unarmed strike, they're a natural attack. Two-weapon fighting doesn't work for those, you want to look at the Multiattack feat.Keep in mind, if you combine weapon attacks with natural weapons, you do take two-weapon fighting penalties with your main weapon. Without TWF and Multiattack, you're at -6 with your main hand and -5 with your natural weapons. You need both TWF and Multiattack to reduce both penalties to -2.
I don't think that's true.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
So Claw and Bite are both normally treated as Primary Natural Attacks (full BAB), but if you use them in a full attack with a weapon, they're made as Secondary Natural Attacks (BAB -5). Multiattack lets a character reduce the Secondary Natural Attack penalty to -2, but there's no TWF prerequisite.
Unfortunately, a character is unable to take Multiattack unless they have three Natural Attacks, and a Sorcerer's Claws and a Dragon Disciple's Bite I don't think qualify, because they're not always there.
I don't think that's true.
The combat chapter seems to disagrees with the universal monster rules.
PFPRD: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.htmlYou can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Emphasis mine.
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I don't think that's true.
The combat chapter seems to disagrees with the universal monster rules.
PFPRD: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.htmlYou can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.Emphasis mine.
I checked the core rulebook, and you're correct. It seems bizarre though, that a monster can use its natural attacks and a weapon without TWF, but a PC cannot. I'm gonna click FAQ now.