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Commonly known as a whip sword, this deadly weapon is fashioned from one to four 5-foot-long, razor-sharp blades of flexible steel. The weapon is wielded by whipping the blades at one's opponent. The coiled blade is fine and flexible enough to be worn as a belt.
Is the Urumi able to be used with weapon finease? It seems like it should be able to be used with it. Just a general impression.
The old version yes, the new version doesn't say finesse-able, so no at this time.
Commonly known as a whip sword, this deadly weapon is fashioned from one to four 5-foot-long, razor-sharp blades of flexible steel. The weapon is wielded by whipping the blades at one's opponent. The coiled blade is fine and flexible enough to be worn as a belt.Is the Urumi able to be used with weapon finease? It seems like it should be able to be used with it. Just a general impression.
I was questioning that myself, since it is technically a whip and whips are finesse-able. Then I thought about how Weapon Finesse applies to light weight weapons and precision weapons. It's definitely not light, and whipping 1-4 blades at someone doesn't seem all that precise either. It would probably wobble and flutter as you struck someone with it. Then again, I'm trying to bring real world logic into fantasy roleplaying.
EDIT: If this is how you're supposed to wield it, then it's definitely not finesse-able. =\
I want to say yes, since the word "whip" is in the description. However, the weapon is in reality neither a light weapon, nor really a simple whip as the feat requires. My feeling is that if it qualified for the feat, the description of the weapon would have said so.
So, no.
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I was questioning that myself, since it is technically a whip and whips are finesse-able. Then I thought about how Weapon Finesse applies to light weight weapons and precision weapons. It's definitely not light, and whipping 1-4 blades at someone doesn't seem all that precise either. It would probably wobble and flutter as you struck someone with it. Then again, I'm trying to bring real world logic into fantasy roleplaying.EDIT: If this is how you're supposed to wield it, then it's definitely not finesse-able. =\
You are suppose to weild it in a flowing, circular motion and twirl the blade around you. It's dangerous to the wielder, but it is sort of a dance that happens, much like the nine-section whip. The difference being that the Urumi is made of coiled steel, with up to 4 pieces of equally lengthed metal twirling around you. The nine-section whip, however, is made of solid pieces of iron or steel that have a small amount of chain between them, and a heavy weight at the end.
To be honest, the Urumi is a more flexible weapon then the nine-section whip is, but ya know... logic doesn't always win.
If you're going to use logic, then it should be pretty much useless.
That's not necessarily true. When I saw the Urumi in the Campaign Setting ,the first hardcover to mention it, I did some research on it because it sounded really cool. It's an actual real world weapon that used to be about 9 of those flexible blades attached to one handle. Most of the common modern day practice pictures or clips I could find used only 1 blade on the handle, well unless they blades are really thing and I just couldn't differentiate between them all.
The weapon is from an Indian style of Martial Arts that how to use the Urumi. A lot like how Kenjutsu is the Japanese Martial Art that teaches how to use the Katana.
Look up a few clips of someone using the Urumi the fact that it lost the reach tag made me raise an eyebrow, but I understand that they are probably trying to avoid a Resurrection of the 3.5 Spike Chain.
If you're going to use logic, then it should be pretty much useless.That's not necessarily true. When I saw the Urumi in the Campaign Setting ,the first hardcover to mention it, I did some research on it because it sounded really cool. It's an actual real world weapon that used to be about 9 of those flexible blades attached to one handle.Against some guy on the street, yeah, you could probably mess him up pretty badly.
Against armored soldiers, not so much. Amongst other things, it's really hard to get any serious force out of a metal whip.
Note that esoteric martial arts weapons have shown basically zero battlefield effect over the centuries. There are basically 5 melee battlefield weapons that everyone used in period - Mace, Axe, Sword, Spear, (later) Polearm. That wasn't just because people are stupid.
-Kle.
I disagree with the things you say.
-Me
I disagree with the things you say.
-Me
Splendid!
Can you support your arguments, or is it just a matter of faith?
-Kle.
A lot of weapons, like the sickle and nunchaku, were repurposed farm tools that were used by people who weren't allowed by their oppressors to possess swords, axes, or halberds. If you think a soldier has never been killed by a pitch fork, or an urumi, you're mistaken.
If you think a soldier has never been killed by a pitch fork, or an urumi, you're mistaken.I'm absolutely certain that several soldiers have been killed with urumis throughout history. None have been killed by them, however.
Explain your semantics.
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If you think a soldier has never been killed by a pitch fork, or an urumi, you're mistaken.I'm absolutely certain that several soldiers have been killed with urumis throughout history. None have been killed by them, however.
That is immaterial to my point, however. I guarantee you that no significant battles against soldiers have been won by forces wielding urumis. Their use is freakish, and historically insignificant. Mostly, their use stems not from their effectiveness, but from ritualistic belief systems that overstate their effectiveness, just like most of the more fanciful martial-arts weapons and techniques. On the real-world battlefield, urumis are just about as useful as the teachings of the Righteous and Harmonious Fists.
Pitchforks, BTW, function basically as poorly-designed spears, and are much better weapons than urumis, with greater battlefield effectiveness.
-Kle.
The arguement that a person has never been killed by an urumi is, plain and simple, wrong. If you are going to argue senantics in a situation such as this, it is hardly a fair place to do so. The point of this discussion was to see what reason there is to not have the Urumi compatable with the Weapon Finesse feat, when it fits the discription of the feat perfectly with the way the weapon works.
For me the urumi is an exotic finessable reach weapon that does 1d4, 20/x2 damage and you can only apply half your str-mod to damage (round down).
Would represent the actual weapon quite well and explain why in a real combat situation (as opposed to a duel) noone would actually use it.
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Against some guy on the street, yeah, you could probably mess him up pretty badly.
Against armored soldiers, not so much. Amongst other things, it's really hard to get any serious force out of a metal whip.
When the first urumi thread popped up, I made this case as well. Really it shouldn't do any damage against anyone with an armor bonus. Same for the scorpion whip.
Ah yes the Urumi -- the anti-katana of RPGs...
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When the first urumi thread popped up, I made this case as well. Really it shouldn't do any damage against anyone with an armor bonus. Same for the scorpion whip.
The problem there is that the armour system is an abstraction of both the amount of protection a piece of that armour grants (how hard it is to penetrate) and how much of you it happens to cover.
Even regular whips shouldn't really suffer the 'doesn't work against armoured opponents' thing they do, because in the game system beating the opponent's AC means you hit him where he's vulnerable - sometimes that may be fluffed as going through his armour, sometimes it'll be fluffed as going around his armour, neither is 'more correct' in descriptive terms.
Put another way, why should a guy wearing a chain shirt be immune to damage from an urumi (using your suggestion of expanding the whip rule) to his unprotected arms, or legs, or face?
Of course, this abstraction tends to mean that the real-world armour-beaters (like military picks) suffer in the system, because armour penetration isn't recognised, and you end up with laughable situations like the falcata, of all things, being the best one-handed weapon, even though it'd be about as useful as a poorly designed club against a guy in full plate.
I haven't gotten hold of Ultimate Combat yet, of course, so some of this may be fixed in there. I assume that the 'armour as DR' rules only count the armour as DR if the attack fails to bypass the armour (hitting instead an unarmoured part of the body) right? And that armour piercing weapons get to reduce the effects of the DR?
A lot of weapons, like the sickle and nunchaku, were repurposed farm tools that were used by people who weren't allowed by their oppressors to possess swords, axes, or halberds. If you think a soldier has never been killed by a pitch fork, or an urumi, you're mistaken.
To get real technical, drinking straws can be used as weapons to kill people, that said I don't see anyone stating drinking straws for weapons.
Oh, and this clip shows a double-bladed urumi being used in an action movie.
Cute clip. The silk and cloth armor of the guards seems to barley stop the blades, however if they wore something like.......leather........
No, it really isn't.
You might be killed by a bear, but not by a hammer.
You might be killed by being struck with a hammer, but that is different.
No, it isn't different. If someone falls asleep at the wheel and runs a man over, was he killed by the car, or by the driver? What if he was awake? What if an explosion sends a crate of urumis straight into a man's face? Was he killed by an urumi, the explosion, the cause of the explosion, the cause of that, what? It's not like you couldn't understand what was being said, making it a correctly worded statement. I could just as easily say, you weren't killed by a bear, you were killed by a bear mauling you, that is different.
Anyway, as ProfPotts points out. Even a soldier in armor would get his ass whipped by an experienced urumi wielder in a given scenario.
Oh, and this clip shows a double-bladed urumi being used in an action movie.Cute clip. The silk and cloth armor of the guards seems to barley stop the blades, however if they wore something like.......leather........
Then he'd have to hit them in the face? Someone wearing chainmail is pretty well protected against sword swings. But it still hurts like a mother when that chunk of metal swings into you. Especially in the face.