True Empire building

[Nos]

Being an old time gamer, lol, I remember way back when, in a land far away, the ability to actually do TRUE empire building.

Dragon issue 125, Brilliant, have not read it? Wanted to build an empire? Read it, best empire economic rules ever.

Look I know kingmaker is good, as all products are, but i would liek to start a thread for any and all of you out there that would like true empire building.

For me this is what empire gaming is all about.
1.Its role playing, no models, or complicated expensive military units that takes hours to work up a single fight. No look at the old, i think blue book, D and D, oh ya lets go back, basic abstract rules. You can go a little more in depth, but really its a nice chart to role on.

2.Actual economic system. base tax, example 1 gp per month. Then like dragon 125. You get a bonus or minus, in percentage, depending on how much of the pop was invested into an area. I know sounds complicated, but think.
Lumber-100 people in it, 25% more for taxes. 125 gp...BAM.

3.Oh ya none of that BIRTHRIGHT crap that came out, where everyone expected an empire game and got a...well bleh, if you played it you will know why i was angry.

PLEASE guys, PLEASE just think about one single 64 page empire source book, just to let us build kingdoms, fight large scale battles, and pretend we run a nation. I mean i think it would be much fun, i use to think a lot of people out there felt the same way.

But i am tired of always having empire games with the out that you can STILL adventure. I know, there are many of those out there. But we ALL KNOW HOW TO ADVENTURE....why cant we have a true empire building game.

okay thats my rant.
Dragon 125, I LOVE YOU.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

That was fun, you basically need rules for hirelings, building army units and fortresses, and everything else is tax collection and economics. Player characters become the leaders of nations, and direct their armies, while often participating in the combat themselves from time to time as well.

Battlesystems come to mind.

[Atavist]

I would love something like this. I've really enjoyed how the company tries to expand into new things, but a lot of the optional stuff like empire building and mass combat or trade have been mishandled by pretty much every RPG out there. It would be awesome to have a book with rules to handle these things in a balanced and involved way. The chapters in the backs of the Adventure Path are great, but this is the kind of thing that should merit a fully focused book.

[EWHM]

The Companion and Masters sets had quite a bit on the empire building score. Building your own little kingdom/fiefdom was something of an expectation for high level characters in those days.

[Nos]

I think that is the one i was talking about. I love roleplaying, i truly do, but the thought of vast empires also is thrilling. The way we played, in fact the group all had different kingdoms, we ended up having sessions played where we basically played our empires like characters, in a way. taking turns, making alliances, fighting wars. so much fun...sigh.

[EWHM]

A lot of the companion & master level adventures had significant empire and war components (Test of the Warlords, and Into the Maelstrom if I recall, which was a D&D adaptation of Homer's works). In some of them, the armies and navies that you built were almost as important as your spells or sword arm.

[Nos]

Hmm i wonder where i might find this? do you think Pathfinder will have a system like this? how is Kingmaker in lines of this kind of game? does it do the job, is it weak? i want a real empire game, and then take on Korvosa....LOL.....my empire mine mine mine.

but seriously.
If Kingmaker does not cut the cheese. I was thiking of assembling books in order to do this.

Economics and population i have covered, that is dragon 125.

Now on to other things. Mass combat. I think was that the D and D blue book?
can you suggest which are useful books to have, which are useless.

[Laurefindel]

Nos wrote:

3.Oh ya none of that BIRTHRIGHT crap that came out, where everyone expected an empire game and got a...well bleh, if you played it you will know why i was angry.

Not all of us did. Mind to share your thoughts on that?

'findel

[Nos]

Back in the old TSR days many of us wanted an empire building game. I say this because there had alrady been a long history of Empire Rpgs, articles etc.

So there was big fanfare and a lot press pushing Birthright as an emprie builder, you played kingdoms, and expanded through war etc...

OF course it was a massive let down, based on Regency points, and it was far more character driven then actual nation driven. I loved Greyhawk wars, and much of the old empire building of original D and D, this however came across as a sort of i want to build empires, but i also want to play characters, i hav ethe fence post up my arse type of game.

Sorry if i am not more specific but its been years, and that was during an angry time of putting out products, no real support, and sort of wanting to be everything to everyone. Will cite Spellfire as another example.

It could hav ebeen brilliant, but it totally focused on the characters way more then the nation. Which you might say, hey that sounds okay, but then there are already other worlds focus on characters, now you are going to add complication to the game but not really diverge that much.
frustrating.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

I kind of liked the old Battlesystems rules, basically it was a Wargame that allowed RPG character interaction. Individual PCs could mix it up with the various units and fight the monsters on the battlefield as part of each turn in the battle, that in my opinion is the entire justification for Empire Building, so one can build armies and have wars. Quite a change in venue from the same old dungeon crawl, don't you think?

[Nos]

any idea where i could find more info?

i also remember a nice little part in one of the L5R games that had mass combat where you waded in and had effects on the outcome.

nice work that.