For me, a lot of the rogues job relies being in the right place at the right time, and so would suggest enhancements to movement:
~limited teleport/dimension door or similar
~the ability to move twice in a round(for example, move, attack, move.)
~the ability to walk on vertical surfaces
Sneak attack should be changed. Let the fighters do the damage; allow the rogue to incapacitate/slow/confuse/etc. I know they have some ability to do this now but it should be enhanced, with damage being reduced.
Improved UMD. Maybe an ability to "Take (level)"; certainly an ability to take 10.
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I think what really defines Rogues for me is their sleight of hand tactics, affinity for traps, and their ability to lie their way out of any jam. I'd love to see a bigger emphasis on this.
Maybe we could give Rogues some abilities that enhance their ability to craft traps the same way the Alchemist gets enhancements to his Craft(Alchemy) skill? Maybe we could let rogues set a simple trap as a move action, or use the UMD skill to set magic traps? I'd love to see a Trap-based Rogue become a viable archetype-- using his rope, caltrops, and the terrain as effectively as other rogues' rapiers to ensnare enemies or herd them like cattle.
As for Sleight of Hand, I'd love to see a rogue talent that lets rogues get combat use out of it. Maybe they could use their SOH ranks instead of Strength for their CMB? Maybe they could make SOH checks in place of a saving throw for something? I also think rogues should use SOH in place of Bluff when they feint.
I also think that there should be a rogue equivalent of the monk's Drunken Master, only this archetype would revolve around getting the mark drunk instead of getting drunk yourself. No idea how it would work, but it would be awesome.
What about a talent that allows a rogue to steal spells or spell like abilities?
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Good idea for this thread with most of the rogue stuff in UC still sucking.
My ideas:
-Portable Trap Placement as swift action that only rogues can do. (both magical and mundane)- This could be used as a nice group thing as the rogue could ask casters to add spells to traps to allow cool spell triggers for more crowd control and such.
-Adding conditions when you get sneak attacks. **This would have to be ON TOP of Sneak Attack damage not to nerf the rogue more** (such as sickened, staggered and so on)
-Counter Attacks (Allows the rogue to get free Attack of opportunities when an enemy attacks someone else but is threatened by you up to half their dex modifier)
-Prey Appraisal (Lets the rogue do a skill check to know an enemies AC, AB or amount of gold they are carrying)
-Spell Dodge (Allows the rogue to have a flat 10% chance to dodge all spells that would effect him before saving throws.
-Called Shot Bonus (Rogues should get a bonus to the new called shot rules, maybe +4)
-Automatic Trap Detection (Like the old elves but with bigger range)
-Shadow Step (gains an extra 5 foot step when concealed or in shadows on top of move actions or other 5 foot steps.)
-Acrobat (Uses the acrobatics skill to perform various combat maneuvers such as bull rush and trip or at least give a bonus/avoid attack of opportunities)
-Finesse Skill (Moves the damage dice of small weapons up 1 category)
We can hope rogues will get some love sometime soon :)
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oh here's another one.. how about about giving rogues a hide in plain sight that doesn't suck ass?
Giving them the ranger one almost caused me to black out with pure rage that they only get to choose a single terrain per trait. It should be like the shadow dancer or assassin one where all they need is shadows.
Good idea for this thread with most of the rogue stuff in UC still sucking.
My ideas:
-Portable Trap Placement as swift action that only rogues can do. (both magical and mundane)- This could be used as a nice group thing as the rogue could ask casters to add spells to traps to allow cool spell triggers for more crowd control and such.
-Adding conditions when you get sneak attacks. **This would have to be ON TOP of Sneak Attack damage not to nerf the rogue more** (such as sickened, staggered and so on)
sooo like bleeding attack, crippling strike, ki block, pressure points, slow reactions, etc? I feel like these already exist, maybe not in hordes, but there are some archetypes which add more options.
-Counter Attacks (Allows the rogue to get free Attack of opportunities when an enemy attacks someone else but is threatened by you up to half their dex modifier)
-Prey Appraisal (Lets the rogue do a skill check to know an enemies AC, AB or amount of gold they are carrying)
ahaha amount of gold they're carrying, I like it
-Spell Dodge (Allows the rogue to have a flat 10% chance to dodge all spells that would effect him before saving throws.
this is way better than a feat. way, way better. anyone with the opportunity to, would take this. and that's a sign that it's not balanced.
-Called Shot Bonus (Rogues should get a bonus to the new called shot rules, maybe +4)
why should rogues be better at this than anyone else?
-Automatic Trap Detection (Like the old elves but with bigger range)
it exists, it's called Trap Spotter
-Shadow Step (gains an extra 5 foot step when concealed or in shadows on top of move actions or other 5 foot steps.)
"extra 5 foot step" generally doesn't work and breaks the game from my understanding after reading these forums
-Acrobat (Uses the acrobatics skill to perform various combat maneuvers such as bull rush and trip or at least give a bonus/avoid attack of opportunities)
cool idea, especially with the UC talents merging sleight of hand and steal
-Finesse Skill (Moves the damage dice of small weapons up 1 category)
would you waste a talent on a +1 average damage?
We can hope rogues will get some love sometime soon :)
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...Good idea for this thread with most of the rogue stuff in UC still sucking.
My ideas:
-Portable Trap Placement as swift action that only rogues can do. (both magical and mundane)- This could be used as a nice group thing as the rogue could ask casters to add spells to traps to allow cool spell triggers for more crowd control and such.
-Adding conditions when you get sneak attacks. **This would have to be ON TOP of Sneak Attack damage not to nerf the rogue more** (such as sickened, staggered and so on)
sooo like bleeding attack, crippling strike, ki block, pressure points, slow reactions, etc? I feel like these already exist, maybe not in hordes, but there are some archetypes which add more options.
-Counter Attacks (Allows the rogue to get free Attack of opportunities when an enemy attacks someone else but is threatened by you up to half their dex modifier)
-Prey Appraisal (Lets the rogue do a skill check to know an enemies AC, AB or amount of gold they are carrying)
ahaha amount of gold they're carrying, I like it
-Spell Dodge (Allows the rogue to have a flat 10% chance to dodge all spells that would effect him before saving throws.
this is way better than a feat. way, way better. anyone with the opportunity to, would take this. and that's a sign that it's not balanced.
-Called Shot Bonus (Rogues should get a bonus to the new called shot rules, maybe +4)
why should rogues be better at this than anyone else?
-Automatic Trap Detection (Like the old elves but with bigger range)
it exists, it's called Trap Spotter
-Shadow Step (gains an extra 5 foot step when concealed or in shadows on top of move actions or other 5 foot steps.)
"extra 5 foot step" generally doesn't work and breaks the game from my understanding after reading these forums
-Acrobat (Uses the acrobatics skill to perform various combat maneuvers such as bull rush and trip or at least give a bonus/avoid attack of opportunities)
cool idea,
heh, they where all very quick ideas i came up with within 2 mins or so but i think most of them are valid. If not fully balanced they represent the idea. The fact remains the rogue needs SOMETHING to help it along. I would rather something unique and cool but anything will make me happy after the crap they got from UC
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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How about a new Rogue Talent: "Deadly Diversion."
Deadly Diversion (Ex): Whenever an enemy that the rogue threatens in melee makes more than a single attack roll against the rogue, the rogue gains a +1 cumulative dodge bonus to AC against each attack after the first. If any of these successive attacks hit the rogue and deal damage, the rogue gains a cumulative +1 to attack and damage rolls against the attacker on his next turn.
And perhaps one to grant a bit more survivability: "Vital Siphon."
Vital Siphon (Su): Whenever a rogue successfully deals sneak attack damage to an opponent, he gains 1 temporary hit point for each die of sneak attack damage. These temporary hit points persist until the beginning of the rogue's next turn and do not stack with themselves.
This helps shore up the two major shortcomings of the rogue class:
1.) Being a more appetizing target than the "tank" to most melee monsters.
2.) Dealing insufficient damage over prolonged combat.
Now your rogue is increasingly difficult to hit with full attacks (one-hit mega-bruisers are still a threat) and, if he "draws aggro" and gets smacked around a bit, he gets a nice damage bonus and some buffer HP to make up for it.
Other alternatives include:
Bait and Switch (Ex): After successfully feinting against a target in melee, the rogue may opt to decline the normal benefit of feinting in exchange for the ability to grant an attack of opportunity to an ally who also threatens the target in melee. This attack of opportunity gains the benefit of the rogue's normal sneak attack damage, even though the rogue is not the one making the attack. This talent can only be used once per day against a given target.
>>The purpose of this talent is to allow the rogue to feel like he has some kind of contribution against exceptionally high-AC, low-DEX targets that are beyond his skill to hit reliably even with feinting.
Thread the Needle (Ex): As a full-round action, a rogue with this talent may make a single attack with a one-handed piercing weapon that ignores all armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses the target has to its AC.
>>This is an alternative way of accomplishing the same thing as Bait and Switch.
New Feat: Shield of Blades (Ex): Your fighting style incorporates all manner of defensive flourishes that increase your defenses the faster you strike. When you make a full attack action, you receive a +1 cumulative dodge bonus for each attack you make until the start of your next turn. Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting or BAB +6
>>Again focusing on keeping the rogue alive during protracted melee combat. Flanked enemies need some incentive to attack the fighter/barbarian/paladin/etc. rather than the rogue or else they will naturally target the thing with lower AC and fewer hit points that is still dealing buckets of d6 each round.
The fact remains the rogue needs SOMETHING to help it along. I would rather something unique and cool but anything will make me happy after the crap they got from UC
I dunno about that. I feel like they got a huge boost from UC (cool archetypes, ninja tricks). The only thing that puzzles me is the confounding blades advanced talent, which seems to be identical to a non-advanced talent from the APG.
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Bait and Switch (Ex): After successfully feinting against a target in melee, the rogue may opt to decline the normal benefit of feinting in exchange for the ability to grant an attack of opportunity to an ally who also threatens the target in melee. This attack of opportunity gains the benefit of the rogue's normal sneak attack damage, even though the rogue is not the one making the attack. This talent can only be used once per day against a given target.
I like that one. Gives the rogue a nice abit of party help. Specially if he can give a big hitter like a fighter or barb an attack of opportunity. I dislike all the once per day thing the books tack on to rogue stuff though. Almost all the rogues abilities should be unlimited. Its not spell casting after all.
Flak, the ninja tricks was a small boost, this i will admit. But it wasn't even aimed at the rogue. If they had given you the same ki pool as the ninja then i would agree more, but most rogue builds would only get 1 or 2 ki points per day at the cost of at least 2 talents which is crazy bad.
anyway.. the original poster is right! More ideas are needed!
so here is my second set:
-Mental Agility: You can choose to use your evasion or improved evasion abilities on saves other than reflex a number of times equal to half your dex modifier. This ability only works for saves induced by damage.
-Sly Conversationalist: The rogue can take control of a conversation and turn it to his advantage forcing a topic change without the other party being aware or subtly tripping his opponent up forcing the truth for a single question out of the target without them being aware. DC: 10+ 1/2 Rogue level + CHA modifier. Will save negates. Failing by 10 or more reveals your intentions.
-Perpetual Poison: The rogue may coat a weapon in poison so well continues to function for a number of rounds equal to his INT modifier after his first attack. Allowing him to poison others without re-coating the weapon.
-Back flip: The rogue may choose to use his acrobatics skill to perform a back flip over an opponent within 5 feet landing him on the nearest empty square on the opposite side of his target. Until the end of the rogues turn the targets is considered being flanked by the rogue from his original position. This is considered a move action. This uses the rogues acrobatics skill vs. 5 + the targets CMD. For every target the rogue flips over to land in an empty space after the first increases the check by 5.
-Tumbling Attack: The rogue launches him self at the ground in front of him granting himself momentum as he rolls and agilely comes up feet first kicking a target with the full force of his body up to half his movement speed away performing a trip combat maneuver with a bonus +5 to his CMB. This allows the rogue to attempt to trip an opponent two size categories than himself instead of the normal 1. If passing through enemy threatened or enemy squares on the way he must perform acrobatic skill checks as normal. Getting hit before the trip attempt stops the movement immediately.
-Improvised Dagger Throw: The rogue can throw daggers of any sort without taking any penalties for throwing them.
-Play Dead: The rogue collapses to the ground as if dead making others believe that he has been killed unless they pass a will save DC 10 + half rogue level + cha modifier. Those who fail believe the rogue has died and will ignore him as well as being considered flat footed to the rogue until the end of the rogues next turn. Those who pass get an attack of opportunity. The rogue is not prone or without dex in this situation and can stand up as a swift action without provoking attacks of opportunity.
-Polished Blade: The first time a rogue uses any non ranged weapon he owns each day they gain a bonus +3 to AB for that round.
-Thief Step: The rogue steps in just the right positions and so softly that he avoids causing sound or vibrations making him immune to tremorsense and blindsense but not blindsight.
-Aptly Deflect: The rogue uses his arms to deflect an attack away from his core doing less damage to him but appearing to land normally to the attacker. The rogue only takes the weapons original unmodified damage without any bonuses by the opponent including that of STR, DEX, abilities or magic but seeming to take the full hit. This can be done once per day but cannot be used on critical hits.
-Dramatic Injury: The rogue acts as if a certain attack against him did more than it really should fooling his opponent into self confidence which grants the rogue an attack of opportunity imminently once the attackers hit landed. This is an immediate action. The opponent is considered flat footed for this attack of opportunity. To perform this the rogue must beat the opponents will save. DC 10 + half rogue level + cha modifier.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Mental Agility: You can choose to use your evasion or improved evasion abilities on saves other than reflex a number of times equal to half your dex modifier. This ability only works for saves induced by damage.
This should only work for a will save, and only against illusions or something like that-Sly Conversationalist: The rogue can take control of a conversation and turn it to his advantage forcing a topic change without the other party being aware or subtly tripping his opponent up forcing the truth for a single question out of the target without them being aware. DC: 10+ 1/2 Rogue level + CHA modifier. Will save negates. Failing by 10 or more reveals your intentions.
This is fine, though I don't think I'd ever use it-Perpetual Poison: The rogue may coat a weapon in poison so effectively that the poison continues to function for a number of rounds equal to his INT modifier after his first attack, allowing him to poison others without re-coating the weapon. The rogue must have the Poison Use class ability to choose this talent.
This one's good, but should be rewritten as shown-Back flip: The rogue may choose to use his acrobatics skill to perform a back flip over an opponent within 5 feet landing him on the nearest empty square on the opposite side of his target. Until the end of the rogues turn the targets is considered being flanked by the rogue from his original position. This is considered a move action. This uses the rogues acrobatics skill vs. 5 + the targets CMD. For every target the rogue flips over to land in an empty space after the first increases the check by 5.
This is crazy powerful, and pretty insane to imagine. In my mind I'm seeing a halfling leaping over a half-orc. Wouldn't work. Why don't you change this one to say that if a rogue moves around the target using his Acrobatics check (to avoid AoOs), ending up on the opposite square, then the target is considered flanked for the remainder of the rogue's turn, giving him sneak damage.-Tumbling Attack: The rogue launches him self at the ground in front of him granting himself momentum as he rolls and agilely comes up feet first kicking a target with the full force of his body up to half his movement speed away performing a trip combat maneuver with a bonus +5 to his CMB. This allows the rogue to attempt to trip an opponent two size categories than himself instead of the normal 1. If passing through enemy threatened or enemy squares on the way he must perform acrobatic skill checks as normal. Getting hit before the trip attempt stops the movement immediately.
I'm having trouble picturing this one too. Try re-wording it as a charge (don't worry about all the fluff about coming up feet first). "The rogue tumbles while charging at a foe, and instead of attacking at the end of his charge he may attempt to trip the foe. This allows the rogue to trip an opponent up to two size categories larger than himself. A successful attack of opportunity against the rogue cancels his movement. The rogue must have the Improved Trip feat to choose this talent."-Improvised Dagger Throw: The rogue can throw appropriately sized daggers of any sort without taking any penalties for throwing them.
This one is awesome, and I'll probably add it to my own house rules.-Play Dead: The rogue collapses to the ground as if dead making others believe that he has been killed unless they pass a will save DC 10 + half rogue level + cha modifier. Those who fail believe the rogue has died and will ignore him as well as being considered flat footed to the rogue until the end of the rogues next turn. Those who pass get an attack of opportunity. The rogue is not considered to be prone and retains his Dex modifier to AC in this situation. The rogue can stand up as a swift action without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Probably a bit overpowered. I would say any enemies should only be considered flat-footed against the rogue until after the rogue attacks once. Don't give him a full attack with sneak on every attack for this.-Polished Blade: The first time a rogue uses any non ranged weapon he owns each day they gain a bonus +3 to AB for that round.
Nope, too much. +1 to attack, sure.-Thief Step: The rogue steps in just the right positions and so softly that he avoids causing sound or vibrations making him immune to tremorsense and blindsense but not blindsight.
Give this a number of rounds per day, and require Stealth checks of a certain DC for every move action while using it. 2xDex mod rounds per day and a stealth check for each movement of 20 or higher would be fair.-Aptly Deflect: The rogue uses his arms to deflect an attack away from his core doing less damage to him but appearing to land normally to the attacker. The rogue only takes the weapons original unmodified damage without any bonuses by the opponent including that of STR, DEX, abilities or magic but seeming to take the full hit. This can be done once per day but cannot be used on critical hits.
This one could work, but needs re-written. You could just say "The damage applied to the rogue is only the weapon damage die without any modifiers, unless the attack was a confirmed critical hit."-Dramatic Injury: The rogue acts as if a certain attack against him did more than it really should fooling his opponent into self confidence which grants the rogue an attack of opportunity imminently once the attackers hit landed. This is an immediate action. The opponent is considered flat footed for this attack of opportunity. To perform this the rogue must beat the opponents will save. DC 10 + half rogue level + cha modifier.
You hit me, so I act really hurt then get a free attack on you? Nope, broken.
Some of these should probably be advanced talents, not just regular rogue talents. You're on the right track, but you've gotta tone down the power of some of these.
Weapon Finesse as a free feat at 1st...
TWF Chain like Rangers without having to have a Dex requirement...
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thank you for feedback cartmanbeck, i am glad you took the time to read them and am overjoyed that you find some of them decent enough to consider. The fluff was quickly written and the talents them selves aren't balanced by any means. The original post wanted ideas so in a few minutes i had spare i threw those out as ideas so people like your self could discuss :)
The reason i put +3 for the first attack from a weapon is because its the first time you use it each day. +1 doesn't seem like enough for a first time a day type thing to me. That and it encourages the rogue to make his first strike count.
I like some of your rewrites :)
reduce sneak attack by 2/3 to give a penalty (-1) on atk or AC or all maneuver checks, this penalty stacks and lasts till 8-hour rest, but is only effective versus rogue
teamwork feat, penalty is effective against anyone.