I made a Gun Mage class a while back, and with the new Ultimate Combat book I reworked my creation. I was wondering if you guys (and girls) could look over it and tell me if it is balanced, and some pointers on how to make it balanced.
You can find the Gun Mage HERE.
Thank you,
Spyder
If you're trying to make in line with the way Pathfinder does things. I would either make the class' BAB poor or increase the hit die to a d8. As of now it's a little off.
On the Trick Shot I'd suggest using his Gun Mage level for BAB rather than caster level.
This is a little nit picky, so I apologize now, but for Phase Bullet would magic armor be considered a magical barrier between the bullet and the target?
That's what I would look at right now.
If you're trying to make in line with the way Pathfinder does things. I would either make the class' BAB poor or increase the hit die to a d8. As of now it's a little off.
On the Trick Shot I'd suggest using his Gun Mage level for BAB rather than caster level.
This is a little nit picky, so I apologize now, but for Phase Bullet would magic armor be considered a magical barrier between the bullet and the target?
That's what I would look at right now.
Yeah, I was thinking the HD should d8, but I thought it would be a little over powered or something.
Trick Shot should have stated that you use your full BAB, but I over looked it.
Phase bullet bypass magical armor. It isn't strong enough magic to stop the bullet.
I hope that helps in any confusion.
Ok, I updated the pdf. Here is the link again: Gun Mage.
Out of curiosity in what way does your Gun Mage differ from the one in UC?
EDIT: Haven't read UC yet so I'm just wondering what you've changed.
Out of curiosity in what way does your Gun Mage differ from the one in UC?
EDIT: Haven't read UC yet so I'm just wondering what you've changed.
I think I need to change some things again.
A big thing I'd like to know is: do you think the gun mage should have the Trick Shot, Seeker Bullet, Phase Bullet, and Hail of Bullets ability?
Druid: A Steam Pistol that requires a heat metal spell.
Um....what? I don't think that pertains to my gun mage class.
Any way, I updated the Gun Mage once more.
I tweaked the Arcane Gun ability a little bit so that the gun mage would have the material components for his spells (even for the ones that cost a certain amount of gold). Also instead of the gun exploding or gaining the broken condition, the gun looses hardness and hit points. The starting hardness for all guns is 10 and all guns have HP of 5.
I also changed Imbue Bullet to Mage Bullets and moved from level 6, where I had it, to level 5.
I also decided to keep Trick Shot, Seeker Bullet, Phase Bullet, and Hail of Bullets.
Over all I want this class to have the feel of the Iron Kingdoms gun mage, but with a bit more kick-assness.
I haven't read through it extensively, but it looks like a nice adaptation of IK's Gun Mage.
I am planning a magi-tek setting and this will be very useful in developing it.
Thanks for sharing.
I haven't read through it extensively, but it looks like a nice adaptation of IK's Gun Mage.
I am planning a magi-tek setting and this will be very useful in developing it.
Thanks for sharing.
You're quite welcome. As a player, I loved playing a gun mage. So why wouldn't I add it into my Pathfinder game.
I've always wanted to play one, but have never had the chance. They definitely needed the Pathfinder treatment to bring them up to par with the base/APG classes.
I've always wanted to play one, but have never had the chance. They definitely needed the Pathfinder treatment to bring them up to par with the base/APG classes.
Yeah, the wizard archetype, Spellslinger, just didn't really do it for me. So I decided to tweak the one I made a year or two ago.
I haven't seen it yet, but I'd think the Gun Mage would be more appropriate as a Magus archetype (with spellstrike and all). That is assuming it was to be made an archetype and not a base class.
I haven't seen it yet, but I'd think the Gun Mage would be more appropriate as a Magus archetype (with spellstrike and all). That is assuming it was to be made an archetype and not a base class.
Magus sounds like a better choice for a gun mage archetype. There is a thread some where around here that someone made a prestige class called a gun magus.
I would still like some in depth feedback on this class. My game is starting in a few weeks and i want to have this completed.
Bump
These are all reactionary as I read through the class:
Arcane Gun: I like the concept, but it's a little too...complex for my tastes. Also, the "it covers any material cost" is too powerful, hands down. Just make it equivalent to eschew materials. I'd say re-word it to something like this:
The Gun Mage is capable of channeling their magic through their gun. Whenever the gun mage casts a spell that includes a ranged touch attack, she can cast it through a gun, adding any bonuses it would grant to attacks and damage to the spell's attack roll and damage (including attack and damage bonuses granted from feats). The gun mage is treated as having eschew materials when casting through a gun.
I tossed out the bit about using it for cone spells, since those all require saves, and also got rid of the hardness bit. I added in the damage bonus, however. The "gun takes damage" thing just felt a little clunky, and I had to wonder why it was there? Are we supposed to be intentionally hindering the gun mage? If you feel the ability needs a drawback (I don't), then I would institute some kind of misfire mechanic.
Armored Caster: Don't bother. Just include this as an addendum to the Weapon and Armor proficiencies, like every other mid-caster.
Gunsmith: Only needed if you decided to go with the Ultimate Combat guns. My Firearm Rules, however, don't require this feat.
Spells: This bit needs some re-wording. I'd suggest essentially copy-pasting what's written in either the Bard or Summoner's spell section.
Bonus Feat: Again, you need some re-wording, but otherwise it's fine.
Reinforcing Runes: After reading this, I'd say 1) drop the "hardness" mechanic of Arcane Gun and integrate a misfire mechanic (perhaps a misfire chance equal to the spell level?). And 2) Increase this to level 3, make it free, and make it a scaling ability that lowers the misfire chance by 1 when casting through a gun at 3rd level and every 4 after.
Trick Shot: I...don't like this. It's a fine ability, it just feels ripped off from the bow and crossbow fighter archetypes from the APG.
Gunfighter: I feel like this comes too early. I'd put it closer to 8th level. Also, it should only apply to ray spells cast through the gun, not all ray spells.
Mage Bullets: I'd like this, except that it falls into the same trap as the Magus Alpha. You're sacrificing spells for an arguably lesser effect. Granted, this lasts for much longer, but it just feels weird.
Also, why is it only one barrel? That makes little sense to me.
Evasion: I'm not opposed to this, but it doesn't really fit with the flavor.
Seeker and Phase Bullet, and Hail of Bullets: Interesting. I like these. No real complaints, other than that you stole them directly from the Arcane Archer, and it still says "arrow" at one point.
Overall Thoughts: The class is weak. Inexorably so. I think with the tweaks I proposed, Arcane Gun and Reinforcing Runes can be really cool, but the abilities stolen from other classes really feel boring.
Overall, I think this class would actually serve better as an archetype for the Magus. If you would allow me, I'd like to throw a proposal at you.
Threw this together: The Gun-Mage
Differences:
You're credited in the document, both at the top and at the end of the OGL.
What do you think? You like the idea? I didn't mean to hijack your class, but I've been meaning to write a gun-mage archetype for the magus for a while, and you gave me an excuse and some cool ideas.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
P.S. - Don't bump your own posts. It's frowned upon. Just do what I do. Pimp them when you post in related threads. That's also frowned upon, but it doesn't feel as desperate and douchey.
I just want to thank you for taking an in depth look at my Gun Mage.
Now that being said, you have a great idea, but I don't want this to be an archetype. It should be a base class, no doubt about it.
Your issues with the abilities:
Arcane Gun: I like the concept, but it's a little too...complex for my tastes. Also, the "it covers any material cost" is too powerful, hands down. Just make it equivalent to eschew materials. I'd say re-word it to something like this:
The Gun Mage is capable of channeling their magic through their gun. Whenever the gun mage casts a spell that includes a ranged touch attack, she can cast it through a gun, adding any bonuses it would grant to attacks and damage to the spell's attack roll and damage (including attack and damage bonuses granted from feats). The gun mage is treated as having eschew materials when casting through a gun.
I tossed out the bit about using it for cone spells, since those all require saves, and also got rid of the hardness bit. I added in the damage bonus, however. The "gun takes damage" thing just felt a little clunky, and I had to wonder why it was there? Are we supposed to be intentionally hindering the gun mage? If you feel the ability needs a drawback (I don't), then I would institute some kind of misfire mechanic.
I like your suggestion for this ability. As for the material component cost problem, I stated it that way because the gun is your focus and materials for casting. I just don't see a gun mage needing a gem to cast a spell when he is casting from his gun. Even in the Iron Kingdoms book it says that while the Gun Mage has a functioning pistol it cover up to 100 gp for material components. But like I said, I like your solution better.
Armored Caster:Don't bother. Just include this as an addendum to the Weapon and Armor proficiencies, like every other mid-caster.
Yeah, I see your point on that.
Gunsmith:Only needed if you decided to go with the Ultimate Combat guns. My Firearm Rules, however, don't require this feat.
I kind of like the rules in UC, the only thing I'm changing is touch AC thing.
Spells:This bit needs some re-wording. I'd suggest essentially copy-pasting what's written in either the Bard or Summoner's spell section.
That was actually taken from the bard's section about spells. I also want to make a complete spell list for the gun mag also. I'm going to start with the magus' spell list and see what other spells need to be aded.
Bonus Feats:Again, you need some re-wording, but otherwise it's fine.
Essentially the gun mage will get combat feats, meta magic feats, the spell focus feats, and the spell penetration feats as bonus feats. All he has to do is meet all the requirements for those feats, and of course be at that level to attain the bonus feat.
Reinforcing Runes:After reading this, I'd say 1) drop the "hardness" mechanic of Arcane Gun and integrate a misfire mechanic (perhaps a misfire chance equal to the spell level?). And 2) Increase this to level 3, make it free, and make it a scaling ability that lowers the misfire chance by 1 when casting through a gun at 3rd level and every 4 after.
Yeah, again, your suggestion is better.
Trick Shot:I...don't like this. It's a fine ability, it just feels ripped off from the bow and crossbow fighter archetypes from the APG.
This was something that I though I made up, I had no idea this was already done. I made this gun mage before the APG came out, or before I even heard about it. I actually like these though. It makes sense for the gun mage to have this ability, after all he is a gunslinger with spells.
Gunfighter:I feel like this comes too early. I'd put it closer to 8th level. Also, it should only apply to ray spells cast through the gun, not all ray spells.
I think it works fine where it is, but I can see where you are coming from. And I like your suggestion.
Mage Bullets:I'd like this, except that it falls into the same trap as the Magus Alpha. You're sacrificing spells for an arguably lesser effect. Granted, this lasts for much longer, but it just feels weird.
Also, why is it only one barrel? That makes little sense to me.
I like this ability and it was taken straight from UC under the gun mage wizard archetype. Also, it doesn't really make sense why it is only one barrel. I'm taking that part out.
Evasion:I'm not opposed to this, but it doesn't really fit with the flavor.
I think it fits really well. I mean think about it. You have the dexterity to to do all these gun tricks and cast spells through you gun, but you can't even dodge attacks with out getting hurt? That really makes no sense to me. I should also add improved evasion. Or why not and uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge?
Seeker and Phase Bullet, and Hail of Bullets:Interesting. I like these. No real complaints, other than that you stole them directly from the Arcane Archer, and it still says "arrow" at one point.
Yeah, I'm guilty of stealing, and I need to do some proof reading again. I thought it would make a great fit for this class. With your advancement in gun play and spell/gun play, why not be able to pull of these abilities. I do, however, love your maximized gun ability and I want to use that as a capstone ability. Can you think of something that I could use to replace the seeker and phase bullet ability?
And thank you for the tips.
Ok, I have updated my Gun Mage using Christopher Delvo's suggestions.
This just came to me, but since I gave the gun his own spell list, are there any new spells that should be added to his list? And if there are, what level should they be placed, since the gun mage's spell level goes to 6?
ok first off, i have to thank you for updating the IK version, since i liked it a lot and was thinking of doing that myself. you saved me the trouble of having to do it.
i also believe they "should" have good will save bonuses, but this isnt really a biggie if they dont. just seems that they should since they are casters, but if you dont change that, i wont complain.
as a whole i like it. my only suggestion would be to fill in the levels in which they get nothing with something. the magus is a similar version of this class and they get something every level. i dont see why this class cant either. if you do do such a thing, you may have to rework when they get certain abilities. i would like to see something like magus arcanas but for guns only, or other non weapon specific arcanas, but what you add is entirely up to you, but as of right now, id be happy to play the class.
If I add the magus arcana, then I would have to add arcana pool, and if I do that then I might as well make this a magus archetype. I don't want to do that.
I could however pick somethings from the magus arcana that I think would fit, and put them in the empty levels.
|
* Move "Improved Spellslinger" from 14th to 6th, and rename it "Point Blank Blaster" (it is essentially a slightly more powerful version of the "Point Blank Master" feat which other 4th-to-6th level builds can qualify for); this replaces the unnamed 6th-level feat.
* Replace "Spellslinger" at 8th with "Penetrating Bullet". (You receive the feat Spell Penetration*.)
* Add "Heighten Bullet" at 12th. (You receive the feat Heighten Spell*.)
* Add "Empower Bullet" at 13th. (You receive the feat Empower Spell*.)
* Add "Greater Penetrating Bullet" at 16th. (You receive the feat Greater Spell Penetration*.)
* Move "Maximize Bullet" from 20th down to 17th. (You receive the feat Maximize Spell*.)
* Add "Vorpal Bullet" at 20th.
Vorpal Bullet: Once per day, as a full round action, sacrifice one of your highest level spells to carefully aim and make an attack roll against a creature who does not have cover or concealment against your attack. If successful, you blow their head clean off (you may choose to amputate a limb rather than a head; if so, the target takes full damage from the shot).
(* These metamagic feats are limited to spells fired through the gun.)
* Add "Heighten Bullet" at 12th.
* Add "Empower Bullet" at 13th.
* Add "Spell Penetrating Bullet" at 16th.
* Move "Maximize Bullet" from 20th down to 17th.
* Add "Vorpal Bullet" at 20th.
Vorpal Bullet: Once per day, as a full round action, sacrifice one of your highest level spells to carefully aim and make an attack roll against a creature with a head who does not have cover or concealment against your attack. If successful, you blow their head clean off.
Why does Vorpal bullet have to be aimed at the head? Why not any limb?
If I add the magus arcana, then I would have to add arcana pool, and if I do that then I might as well make this a magus archetype. I don't want to do that.
I could however pick somethings from the magus arcana that I think would fit, and put them in the empty levels.
you dont have to add the pool or make it an archetype, and they dont have to be magus arcana per say, you could always do it like how rogues get talents, or you can give them deeds from the gunslinger that they can pick. what ever you add is up to you. im just brainstorming and feeling that the class needs a little bit more than what it has for the empty level slots. not that the class is bad, its good, just a little bit more umph is needed and it wont break the class, just bring it up to par with others, such as the magus, druid, etc, etc, etc.
Because it's funnier the way I wrote it? :-P
Reword as you see fit. The 20th level ability is similar to the bard's auto-kill ability at 20th.
(I added some more edits to that last post, BTW.)
Ok, I do like those abilities. And I'll probably rename Vorpal Bullet to Severing Bullet and allow it to target any limb, including the head. Even though I think the player would pick to target the head any way.
Edit: And the way you wrote Vorpal Bullet cracked me up.
you dont have to add the pool or make it an archetype, and they dont have to be magus arcana per say, you could always do it like how rogues get talents, or you can give them deeds from the gunslinger that they can pick. what ever you add is up to you. im just brainstorming and feeling that the class needs a little bit more than what it has for the empty level slots. not that the class is bad, its good, just a little bit more umph is needed and it wont break the class, just bring it up to par with others, such as the magus, druid, etc, etc, etc.If I add the magus arcana, then I would have to add arcana pool, and if I do that then I might as well make this a magus archetype. I don't want to do that.
I could however pick somethings from the magus arcana that I think would fit, and put them in the empty levels.
I think I'm going to go with what Mike Schneider suggested. It seems like a perfect fit for the gun mage.
whatever you decide is fine with me, so long as the gaps get filled. also please consider giving the capstone a save, maybe similar to the rogues capstone. killing something outright with a successful hit and no save is ridiculous, even at 20th level.
whatever you decide is fine with me, so long as the gaps get filled. also please consider giving the capstone a save, maybe similar to the rogues capstone. killing something outright with a successful hit and no save is ridiculous, even at 20th level.
What about a Reflex saving throw, say the DC would be DC 10 +1/2 the gun mage's lvl + the gun mage's Dex modifier? And on a successful saving through, the target takes 1/2 maximum damage as bleeding damage?
Or should it be a Fortitude saving throw?
Edit: I left Vorpal Bullet that it takes the target's head off
Ok, I have updated my Gun Mage using Christopher Delvo's, Fnipernackle's, and Mike Schneider's suggestions.
Thank you everyone who helped in this class' revision.
i hate doing this cause i hate having to updatee, upload, and post a new link every time i update the class and i think im finished, but the gun mage doesnt have (yet they should have) the gunslinger ability that gives them a battered gun at 1st level. you should add that in as battered gun" right after weapon and armor proficiency. you can word it exactly like how its worded under the spellslinger wizard archetype if you so choose, or if you dont want the person to have to have UC, just add the full description from gunslinger. other than that looks fine to me.
i hate doing this cause i hate having to updatee, upload, and post a new link every time i update the class and i think im finished, but the gun mage doesnt have (yet they should have) the gunslinger ability that gives them a battered gun at 1st level. you should add that in as battered gun" right after weapon and armor proficiency. you can word it exactly like how its worded under the spellslinger wizard archetype if you so choose, or if you dont want the person to have to have UC, just add the full description from gunslinger. other than that looks fine to me.
Yeah, I'll just word it like it says in the spellslinger archetype, but leave out the part about attuning the gun.
Also, make sure the capstone states how long the target takes the bleed damage. I say one round since at that level you can dish out a crap ton of damage.
Ok, I have updated the Gun Mage once more.
Hopefully this will be the last time, lol.
i hate doing this to you cause i know how it feels, but did you forget to put in the extra gun mage specific spells at the end or did you take them out on purpose?
i hate doing this to you cause i know how it feels, but did you forget to put in the extra gun mage specific spells at the end or did you take them out on purpose?
Yeah I took them out because the new spells in UC replace the ones I had below.
So u added spells from UM and UC to their spell list? *crosses fingers*
So u added spells from UM and UC to their spell list? *crosses fingers*
Well crap! I forgot about UM....dang it.
Edit: Essentially, though, I think any spell a magus can cast the gun mage should be able to as well. Just those that call for a melee weapon would work on a firearm as well.
You inspired me to make a gun mage of my own, Spyder. Thanks for the motivation, this thread was really helpful.
You inspired me to make a gun mage of my own, Spyder. Thanks for the motivation, this thread was really helpful.
You're very welcome! I'm glad I could help.
Ok, I made an update to the Gun Mage. I changed the Metamagic abilities to once a day like the Magus and I extended the bleed effect of Vorpal Bullet to two rounds instead of one.