A quick question that hopefully has an equally quick answer.
When applying the zombie template to a creature, you usually drop any class-based hit dice. Okay, I can handle that.
But what about applying the zombie template as an acquired template to an NPC who originally gained 4 or more class levels before they were afflicted? Do they retain their permanent +1 increases to ability scores for every four levels they attained before they became a zombie, or do they lose them?
If it is strength or dex, keep, otherwise it is a non issue.
For easy of book keeping and balance I'd say they don't carry over. Reason being, people (read PCs) will start trying to find the corpses of elite npcs who were high level to get the most out of the creation process. Also the loss of HD means that bonus should no longer be included (if X levels/HD is the requirement, you no longer have them once being turned to a zombie, the requirement is no longer fulfilled so the bonus should no longer be "active").
Also technically a corpse stops being a creature and is basically an object, so it doesn't have those extra stats (or any for that matter) unless something extraordinary is done. Like a raise dead, rez or true rez. Those make the corpse stop being and object and restore the creature (which is what had the bonus in the first place). You are applying a template to an object, not really the creature itself, so those bonuses don't really make sense. If you do keep them, you will have to remember which corpse was the 3rd level warrior, which was the 6th level rogue who died last adventure and which is the 20th level commoner. The rules are balanced on a "typical" stat layout in the bestiary, they tend to fall apart when applied to things outside that box.
They always lose the class HD. The number of class levels is not an issue. Even if someone is level 20 if they get zombiefied they become a zombie, just as if they were a commoner.
Thanks for the thoughts, you have all brought the much-needed clarity I sought. I think the primary problem was that I was trying to consider the zombie as still the base creature but with undead stuff overlaid, when really it is merely an animated corpse and what it was in life is irrelevant.
Thanks again for the help.
They always lose the class HD. The number of class levels is not an issue. Even if someone is level 20 if they get zombiefied they become a zombie, just as if they were a commoner.
Aside for weapon proficiencies. Also, I could see this more for skeleton than zombie (what he was asking about), as zombies still have muscle, tendons, etc, that training strength or dex would represent. Also:
Abilities: Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10.
Nothing about dropping stat gains.
Finally:
For easy of book keeping and balance I'd say they don't carry over. Reason being, people (read PCs) will start trying to find the corpses of elite npcs who were high level to get the most out of the creation process.
I would have no problem with this, fantasy literature is rife with examples.
They always lose the class HD. The number of class levels is not an issue. Even if someone is level 20 if they get zombiefied they become a zombie, just as if they were a commoner.
Aside for weapon proficiencies. Also, I could see this more for skeleton than zombie (what he was asking about), as zombies still have muscle, tendons, etc, that training strength or dex would represent. Also:
Abilities: Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10.Nothing about dropping stat gains.
Finally:
For easy of book keeping and balance I'd say they don't carry over. Reason being, people (read PCs) will start trying to find the corpses of elite npcs who were high level to get the most out of the creation process.I would have no problem with this, fantasy literature is rife with examples.
Those stat gains come from HD. Of course if you don't have the HD you don't get the stat gains. As a matter of fact they are HD gained from classes that you don't have anymore. Losing the HD, and trying to keep the stat gains makes as much sense as trying to keep anything else the HD gains give you.
Those stat gains come from HD. Of course if you don't have the HD you don't get the stat gains. As a matter of fact they are HD gained from classes that you don't have anymore. Losing the HD, and trying to keep the stat gains makes as much sense as trying to keep anything else the HD gains give you.They always lose the class HD. The number of class levels is not an issue. Even if someone is level 20 if they get zombiefied they become a zombie, just as if they were a commoner.
Aside for weapon proficiencies. Also, I could see this more for skeleton than zombie (what he was asking about), as zombies still have muscle, tendons, etc, that training strength or dex would represent. Also:
Abilities: Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10.Nothing about dropping stat gains.
Finally:
For easy of book keeping and balance I'd say they don't carry over. Reason being, people (read PCs) will start trying to find the corpses of elite npcs who were high level to get the most out of the creation process.I would have no problem with this, fantasy literature is rife with examples.
But you get to keep weapon proficiencies?
But you get to keep weapon proficiencies?
The creature's type changes to undead.
Your type determines what weapon proficiencies you have in the absence of class levels.
As written you retain the stat modifiers. That means that if Hero McSumDude reached a mighty 22 strength over his career, then suddenly died at the hands of some big-bad, the big-bad now has a 2HD zombie with a 24 strength. It's an especially fine specimen. Likewise, old and crusty zombies are weak as all getup because they have up to a -6 penalty to their physical ability scores (one of my players recently got turned into a zombie via zombie rot, and the zombie's stats were 3, 1, -, -, 10, 10. :P
But you get to keep weapon proficiencies?[quote=PRD and zombie entry
The creature's type changes to undead.
Your type determines what weapon proficiencies you have in the absence of class levels.
Attacks: A zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. It also gains a slam attack that deals damage based on the zombie's size, but as if it were one size category larger than its actual size (see Natural Attacks).
But you get to keep weapon proficiencies?[quote=PRD and zombie entry
The creature's type changes to undead.Your type determines what weapon proficiencies you have in the absence of class levels.
Attacks: A zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. It also gains a slam attack that deals damage based on the zombie's size, but as if it were one size category larger than its actual size (see Natural Attacks).
Exactly. The base creature not the class.
Exactly. The base creature not the class.
But you get to keep weapon proficiencies?[quote=PRD and zombie entry
The creature's type changes to undead.Your type determines what weapon proficiencies you have in the absence of class levels.
Attacks: A zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. It also gains a slam attack that deals damage based on the zombie's size, but as if it were one size category larger than its actual size (see Natural Attacks).
The base creature does not lose it's class. You'll note that the skeleton (same rule in it's attack) has a +0 to hit with it's broken scimitar, not the -2 it would have by your interpretation.
Remember, this is a Template. The base creature is whatever you are applying it to, not the type of the creature you're applying it to. Keirato is correct. The "base creature" is whatever you are applying the skeleton or zombie template to, and anything not mentioned is not changed.
When the base creature dies it is a corpse. Corpses(objects) don't retain class abilities.
edit:This can be solved quiet easily by finding an adventure with a zombified former NPC to use as an example. I will see if I can find any.
I'm done here. I've provided raw supporting my points, you have not. Good evening (or whatever time it is where you live).
I'm done here. I've provided raw supporting my points, you have not. Good evening (or whatever time it is where you live).
You have provided bad interpretations of RAW. You can apologize later.
When the base creature dies it is a corpse. Corpses(objects) don't retain class abilities.
edit:This can be solved quiet easily by finding an adventure with a zombified former NPC to use as an example. I will see if I can find any.
You just basically invalidated your own argument due to absurdity, my dear Wraith. Corpses don't have stats. The base creature is the statistics block of the creature that is to be changed. In other words if you are going to make a "half fiend" then you take the stats of the creature in question (referred to as the base creature) and then apply the template, changing anything that is noted to be changed.
Assuming you've played 3.x/PF for any real amount of time, surely you must merely be jesting at your insistence of this.
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.
That is the skeletal champion.
Since skeletons and zombies basically follow the same rules why would this template insist on giving you something that you get anyway. You are only proficient with those weapons due to class levels. no class HD equals no proficiencies from HD.
edit: added "from HD"
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.
That is the skeletal champion.
Since skeletons and zombies basically follow the same rules why would this template insist on giving you something that you get anyway. You are only proficient with those weapons due to class levels. no class HD equals no proficiencies from HD.
edit: added "from HD"
Skeletal champions can have HD from class levels, which results in stronger undead with class features. A skeletal champion can be an undead 1 / fighter 5 for example, and does not lose those features. EDIT: That means that a skeletal champion can have stuff like Weapon Training, or Sneak Attack. Or it might mean that in addition to being a normal skeletn, it also has 12 levels of Warrior, raising its CR by +6 and making it a CR 5 creature (CR 1/3->1/2->1->2->3->4->5), with 14 HD (2 undead, 12 warrior) and 4th level heroic NPC wealth.
Likewise, your argument that the undead retain HD from their type is again being contradicted by your argument here. Take a moment to consider that if you are gaining the proficiencies of your race from your HD, you no longer have anything like "Humanoid" or "Outsider" hit dice when you become a skeleton. You now have Undead hit dice, effectively losing the "class features" of your previous HD.
Skeletons and Zombies retain any proficiencies the base creature had - period. That means if you kill some dude that was wielding a spiked chain proficiently, then your zombie also can wield that spiked chain. That's a feature of skeletons and zombies.
It's a template. You change what is noted and everything else remains.
For what it's worth, I agree more with wraithstrike: the base creature is just the 0HD creature as presented before it selects a class, not afterwards. The base creature is "a human" or "a drow", not "a drow fighter". The drow should retain its light blindness and so on (they are racial features) but not any weapon proficiencies granted by a class. That's what a juju zombie is for.
As for the skeleton example, I wonder if that's an oversight. As it's wielding a broken scimitar in the bestiary, shouldn't it be at a total of -4 if there's a nonproficiency penalty at play?
###
Bottom line: the zombie template does seem to have some weird interactions when used with 0HD races. Might be worth addressing at some point.
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.
That is the skeletal champion.
Since skeletons and zombies basically follow the same rules why would this template insist on giving you something that you get anyway. You are only proficient with those weapons due to class levels. no class HD equals no proficiencies from HD.
edit: added "from HD"
Skeletal champions can have HD from class levels, which results in stronger undead with class features. A skeletal champion can be an undead 1 / fighter 5 for example, and does not lose those features. EDIT: That means that a skeletal champion can have stuff like Weapon Training, or Sneak Attack. Or it might mean that in addition to being a normal skeletn, it also has 12 levels of Warrior, raising its CR by +6 and making it a CR 5 creature (CR 1/3->1/2->1->2->3->4->5), with 14 HD (2 undead, 12 warrior) and 4th level heroic NPC wealth.
Likewise, your argument that the undead retain HD from their type is again being contradicted by your argument here. Take a moment to consider that if you are gaining the proficiencies of your race from your HD, you no longer have anything like "Humanoid" or "Outsider" hit dice when you become a skeleton. You now have Undead hit dice, effectively losing the "class features" of your previous HD.
Skeletons and Zombies retain any proficiencies the base creature had - period. That means if you kill some dude that was wielding a spiked chain proficiently, then your zombie also can wield that spiked chain. That's a feature of skeletons and zombies.
It's a template. You change what is noted and everything else remains.
A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.
Even if you could keep some of the feats, which I am still doubting it seems to apply to things like weapon focus, not proficiency.
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.
That is the skeletal champion.
Since skeletons and zombies basically follow the same rules why would this template insist on giving you something that you get anyway. You are only proficient with those weapons due to class levels. no class HD equals no proficiencies from HD.
edit: added "from HD"
Skeletal champions can have HD from class levels, which results in stronger undead with class features. A skeletal champion can be an undead 1 / fighter 5 for example, and does not lose those features. EDIT: That means that a skeletal champion can have stuff like Weapon Training, or Sneak Attack. Or it might mean that in addition to being a normal skeletn, it also has 12 levels of Warrior, raising its CR by +6 and making it a CR 5 creature (CR 1/3->1/2->1->2->3->4->5), with 14 HD (2 undead, 12 warrior) and 4th level heroic NPC wealth.
Likewise, your argument that the undead retain HD from their type is again being contradicted by your argument here. Take a moment to consider that if you are gaining the proficiencies of your race from your HD, you no longer have anything like "Humanoid" or "Outsider" hit dice when you become a skeleton.
My point was that your race determines how the template works, not class levels.
I think what this comes down to is working out what the official definition of the text "drop HD gained from class levels" means.
Which opens up another question: when a fighter (for example) gains proficiency with all martial weapons, does it gain that proficiency because it has a fighter class Hit Dice, or for some other reason? If that Hit Dice ever disappears, does the fighter lose any benefits from that Hit Dice?
<removed section about juju zombie, not helping either side of the debate>
It also depends on whether the proficiencies gained when you take a class level count as 'feats', because the normal zombie loses all of those.
For easy of book keeping and balance I'd say they don't carry over. Reason being, people (read PCs) will start trying to find the corpses of elite npcs who were high level to get the most out of the creation process. Also the loss of HD means that bonus should no longer be included (if X levels/HD is the requirement, you no longer have them once being turned to a zombie, the requirement is no longer fulfilled so the bonus should no longer be "active").
Also technically a corpse stops being a creature and is basically an object, so it doesn't have those extra stats (or any for that matter) unless something extraordinary is done. Like a raise dead, rez or true rez. Those make the corpse stop being and object and restore the creature (which is what had the bonus in the first place). You are applying a template to an object, not really the creature itself, so those bonuses don't really make sense. If you do keep them, you will have to remember which corpse was the 3rd level warrior, which was the 6th level rogue who died last adventure and which is the 20th level commoner. The rules are balanced on a "typical" stat layout in the bestiary, they tend to fall apart when applied to things outside that box.
First of all, those aren't temporary class level-dependent bonuses. Those are permanent increases (they are called "increases," not "bonuses" in Core) granted by overall character level. You don't lose them when you suffer negative levels, so why would they disappear when you become a zombie?
Secondly, nothing is to stop a PC from searching out elite citizens to turn into undead in any case, so why worry about such a measly thing as who got more ability increases than who before they became zombies? Personally, I would find such initiative intriguing.
Thirdly, a zombie is a creature. Some rare undead are treated like objects with regards to certain saving throws, but what does that have to do with this?
And why would you have to remember what level what was when it died? The zombie template is simply applied, right over the existing ability scores. The rules are not so delicately balanced that a simple 16 versus 15 in Strength on the base creature is going to throw the whole game off when somebody becomes a zombie.
They always lose the class HD. The number of class levels is not an issue. Even if someone is level 20 if they get zombiefied they become a zombie, just as if they were a commoner.
Aside for weapon proficiencies. Also, I could see this more for skeleton than zombie (what he was asking about), as zombies still have muscle, tendons, etc, that training strength or dex would represent. Also:
Abilities: Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10.Nothing about dropping stat gains.
Finally:
For easy of book keeping and balance I'd say they don't carry over. Reason being, people (read PCs) will start trying to find the corpses of elite npcs who were high level to get the most out of the creation process.I would have no problem with this, fantasy literature is rife with examples.
The problem is by RAW you are always taking the "average" creature into account when a PC is creating something. Your "average" human is going to have 1 HD, your "average" elf is going to have the same, sample characters may be shown but that doesn't change what the "average" creature really is. The "average" creature that has more than 3 HD (typically racial) is going to have that stat bump already included so it makes no difference. Now if the DM allows for something other than that, they are doing the player a favor. If you want to rule that the stat bump stays you best believe some time in my adventuring career I ran into the corpse of a 20th level fighter, or better yet 40 HD deitys avatar corpse, and I made my zombie out of that.
As I said there are balance issues to be considered and that is why the "average" humanoid should be the base for the template. It might have been a 6th level fighter but after the "transformation" it's really an average human fighter with X undead HD and fighter proficiencies. Its background is nothing more than fluff really to justify the mechanics. "Oh, I can have 8 HD worth of zombie" *pulls corpse out of the game ether* This "8th level fighter" will do the trick. The corpse could have just as easily been a 1st level commoner for all that it matters. The mechanics say you can have an 8 HD zombie, fluff it out however you want, it really doesn't matter mechanically what the corpse was.
Anyone lobbying for the stat bump for PC created undead is pretty much playing the metagaming/powergaming game and trying to justify free bonuses. You are tryiing to double dip, "well it was an 8th level fighter so I can bump str by an additional 2 and now that it is a zombie with 8 HD I can put an additional 2 into str for these HD on top of what the template gives." I don't have a problem with it either way, but let's just call a spade "a spade" because it is what it is.
As I said there are balance issues to be considered and that is why the "average" humanoid should be the base for the template. It might have been a 6th level fighter but after the "transformation" it's really an average human fighter with X undead HD and fighter proficiencies. Its background is nothing more than fluff really to justify...
Except the OP wasn't asking if a created undead gained the increase based on its new Hit Dice. He was asking if a character that had already gained those increases retained them before the template was applied. And the answer is yes, because Core calls those ability INCREASES, not BONUSES.
What you are saying seems to be that when the 6th level fighter dies, his ability scores all revert to the standard array before anything else happens, but that is in direct contradiction to what the zombie template says. Not to mention not taking into account adjustments from race. You need to read the Bestiary.
I think what this comes down to is working out what the official definition of the text "drop HD gained from class levels" means.
Which opens up another question: when a fighter (for example) gains proficiency with all martial weapons, does it gain that proficiency because it has a fighter class Hit Dice, or for some other reason? If that Hit Dice ever disappears, does the fighter lose any benefits from that Hit Dice?
<removed section about juju zombie, not helping either side of the debate>
It also depends on whether the proficiencies gained when you take a class level count as 'feats', because the normal zombie loses all of those.
Dropping HD from classes is there to keep people from modifying already powerful creatures (giant for example) with classes and keeping those additional abilities. It goes back to the template being applied to the "base" creature, the "average" of its type. A 4 HD giant is supposed to have its racial abilities modified by the template, not its racial and class abilities. The issue being some races are "defined" by a class (those that only have 1 HD) so in those cases it may be tricky to divy up the abilities. Regardless if a race that is defined by class is "zombified", for conversion purposes you should only take into account that first HD as the average of that race would only have 1 HD. Even if it was a 17th level warrior "dropping class levels" leaves you with a single HD of warrior, that last HD being the racial HD.
As I said there are balance issues to be considered and that is why the "average" humanoid should be the base for the template. It might have been a 6th level fighter but after the "transformation" it's really an average human fighter with X undead HD and fighter proficiencies. Its background is nothing more than fluff really to justify...
Except the OP wasn't asking if a created undead gained the increase based on its new Hit Dice. He was asking if a character that had already gained those increases retained them before the template was applied. And the answer is yes, because Core calls those ability INCREASES, not BONUSES.
What you are saying seems to be that when the 6th level fighter dies, his ability scores all revert to the standard array before anything else happens, but that is in direct contradiction to what the zombie template says. Not to mention not taking into account adjustments from race. You need to read the Bestiary.
Those were gained due to increase in class levels. Those class levels are gone. Where is he getting the increases from?
As I said there are balance issues to be considered and that is why the "average" humanoid should be the base for the template. It might have been a 6th level fighter but after the "transformation" it's really an average human fighter with X undead HD and fighter proficiencies. Its background is nothing more than fluff really to justify...
Except the OP wasn't asking if a created undead gained the increase based on its new Hit Dice. He was asking if a character that had already gained those increases retained them before the template was applied. And the answer is yes, because Core calls those ability INCREASES, not BONUSES.
What you are saying seems to be that when the 6th level fighter dies, his ability scores all revert to the standard array before anything else happens, but that is in direct contradiction to what the zombie template says. Not to mention not taking into account adjustments from race. You need to read the Bestiary.
It isn't a contradiction as the template should be being applied to the "average" creature. An 8th level human fighter isn't "average." Not to mention templates are typically not the domain of characters but the DM. And again I don't care either way as long as people aren't trying to double dip for the bonus. If during the creation of the zombie the bonus ability bumps aren't being doubled up, only being applied once there is no issue. It doesn't matter if they are applied before the transition or after technically. If they are trying to reason they should be applied twice that is where I'm pointing and saying "No, it doesn't work that way." While my example/reasoning may have been bad, by no means is the arguement that the bonus shouldn't be doubled up incorrect. When building up a creature I would take the bases stats of the average creature, modded by race, apply the template and then adjust depending on HD. It makes sense to do it that way (at least for our gaming group and myself), maybe it is a matter of preference... *shrug*
Even if it was a 17th level warrior "dropping class levels" leaves you with a single HD of warrior, that last HD being the racial HD.
The text of the Bestiary says "drop HD gained by class levels (minimum of 1)"--does that mean drop them down to a minimum of one, or drop a minimum of one HD? It's unclear.
If it's the former, Skylancer4's suggestion makes sense.
However, in the Bestiary, the zombie is shown as simply "NE Medium undead", whereas in Bestiary 2 the juju zombie is shown as "Human juju zombie rogue 2, NE Medium undead (augmented human)".
The normal zombie does not have any class hit dice, only the two racial HD from being a Medium zombie. The juju zombie, on the other hand, retains its 2d8 from its two levels of rogue.
Until and unless we get an official answer, I will say that a normal zombie loses everything that is defined by class levels, including weapon proficiencies, ability bonuses, the works. A juju zombie retains all of those.
That's my interpretation, anyway. I don't thing the rules as written are specific or clear enough that no interpretation is required.
Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but how do you determine which stats have the +1 for 4hd?
It isn't a contradiction as the template should be being applied to the "average" creature. An 8th level human fighter isn't "average." Not to mention templates are typically not the domain of characters but the DM. And again I don't care either way as long as people aren't trying to double dip for the bonus. If during the creation of the zombie the bonus ability bumps aren't being doubled up, only being applied once there is no issue. It doesn't matter if they are applied before the transition or after technically. If they are trying to reason they should be applied twice that is where I'm pointing and saying "No, it doesn't work that way." While my example/reasoning may have been bad, by no means is the arguement that the bonus shouldn't be doubled up incorrect. When building up a creature I would take the bases stats of the average creature, modded by race, apply the template and then adjust depending on HD. It makes sense to do it that way (at least for our gaming group and myself), maybe it is a...
No, it's not an average creature. It's the creature. If you animate a perfectly average NPC, then you get a perfectly average specimen. If you animate some dude who was 80 years old with a 3 strength, you get a crusty old zombie with a bad starting stock.
Likewise, sure if you can find a giant with 20 levels of Warrior to slay and animate, good on you. That giant is likely around CR 17+, and the only difference would be a whopping...5 points to an ability score. Woop-de-do.
Likewise if a PC is slain and then re-animated as a skeleton or zombie under the big bad's control, then the template is applied to the PC's statistics.
You are making stuff up. Sadly, so is wraithstrike. It says you retain any weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The base creature is whatever it was before you turn it into a skeleton or zombie. Furthermore, the argument over racial HD is moot because they don't have any racial HD other than Undead now, so if the argument that you would lose proficiencies from lost class HD is being made, then you must also lose HD from lost racial HD (because any way you slice it, you do not have any HD other than undead HD anymore).
I think the issue is our perception of base creature. I have never seen zombie modified by its class levels at all. All you ever got were the racial HD modified, and if it was 0-hd creature you got one undead hd.
If people get to fool around class HD then necromancy just got a boost though. I don't think that is RAI or RAW though.
I think the issue is our perception of base creature. I have never seen zombie modified by its class levels at all. All you ever got were the racial HD modified, and if it was 0-hd creature you got one undead hd.
If people get to fool around class HD then necromancy just got a boost though. I don't think that is RAI or RAW though.
Then why does the Human Zombie have 2hd?
Edit
Referring strictly to Hit dice, not saying anything about the proficiencies
Somewhat separately:
A 4 HD giant is supposed to have its racial abilities modified by the template, not its racial and class abilities. The issue being some races are "defined" by a class (those that only have 1 HD) so in those cases it may be tricky to divy up the abilities.
Those races defined by class have 0HD, not 1HD:
Drow are defined by their class levels--they do not possess racial Hit Dice.
For example. The same applies to every other race with a '<such and such> characters' block in both Bestiaries, e.g. aasimar, orcs, kobolds... It's the interaction between the zombie template and these 0HD races that is really causing the trouble.
I think the issue is our perception of base creature. I have never seen zombie modified by its class levels at all. All you ever got were the racial HD modified, and if it was 0-hd creature you got one undead hd.
If people get to fool around class HD then necromancy just got a boost though. I don't think that is RAI or RAW though.
Then why does the Human Zombie have 2hd?
Edit
Referring strictly to Hit dice, not saying anything about the proficiencies
At least I can answer this one: it has a racial HD from being humanoid (human), since it no longer has any class HD:
A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
- d8 Hit Die, or by character class.
Having lost its final class HD, the zombie gains a single racial humanoid HD.
So is that the answer? The base creature is 'humanoid (<insert subtype>)' for most NPCs?
Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but how do you determine which stats have the +1 for 4hd?
FWIW, if I were to take this approach I would build the NPC as per normal, allocating the stat boosts, then strip away all the stuff the template removes as I apply the template.
Alternatively, boost the stat that the NPC relied on most before death, as determined by his or her class before death. E.g. allocate to Strength for melee combatants, Dex for ranged combatants, Int for wizards et cetera.
All monsters are proficient in every weapon, armor and shield in their entry.
Skeleton has scimitar proficiency because it is in its stat block. No more, no less.
Zombies gain HD based on their size. Not their class levels or their racial HD. An ogre zombie has +2 HD for a total of 6 HD because it is large. It is not gaining HD because it was "humanoid" before this. Again with all this adding rules that aren't there.
Likewise, it says to remove all the HD gained from class levels. It notes that the zombies retain nothing except the PROFICIENCIES of the base creature. That is that a bard turned into a zombie gets to use his whip. He doesn't get to use bardic music. It's not rocket science people. It spells it out right there in the book. The term "base creature" is one used in templates and has been since they were added in 3E.
“Zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead), referred to hereafter as the base creature.
The "base creature" is whatever you are applying the template to. If you are applying the template to a half-dragon frost giant with 20 levels of warrior it's still the "base creature". Now it goes on to say that you would remove the HD gained from his warrior levels, turn all his humanoid HD into undead HD (removing the benefits of his humanoid HD), and you would add +2 HD because the Giant is large. It notes you keep any weapon proficiencies of the base creature, and it loses any special qualities (such as those of being a half-dragon or giant) that don't affect their melee or ranged attacks (so he keeps the ability to throw stones and his claw/bite attacks).
Seriously people.
All monsters are proficient in every weapon, armor and shield in their entry.
Skeleton has scimitar proficiency because it is in its stat block. No more, no less.
This is false. Not all monsters are proficient with any weapon in their entry.
All monsters are proficient in every weapon, armor and shield in their entry.
Skeleton has scimitar proficiency because it is in its stat block. No more, no less.
Now you should know someone is going to ask for a quote. I will take care of this one in advance though. :)
• Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
This is false. Not all monsters are proficient with any weapon in their entry.All monsters are proficient in every weapon, armor and shield in their entry.
Skeleton has scimitar proficiency because it is in its stat block. No more, no less.
Correct. Vermin, animal, plants, and probably a few typically other ones do not get that benefit.
edit:Humanoids, Oozes, and Magical Beast also don't get this benefit. Certain creatures are only proficient with listed weapon if they have a humanoid form.
Zombies gain HD based on their size. Not their class levels or their racial HD. An ogre zombie has +2 HD for a total of 6 HD because it is large. It is not gaining HD because it was "humanoid" before this. Again with all this adding rules that aren't there.
Likewise, it says to remove all the HD gained from class levels. It notes that the zombies retain nothing except the PROFICIENCIES of the base creature. That is that a bard turned into a zombie gets to use his whip. He doesn't get to use bardic music. It's not rocket science people. It spells it out right there in the book. The term "base creature" is one used in templates and has been since they were added in 3E.
“Zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead), referred to hereafter as the base creature.The "base creature" is whatever you are applying the template to. If you are applying the template to a half-dragon frost giant with 20 levels of warrior it's still the "base creature". Now it goes on to say that you would remove the HD gained from his warrior levels, turn all his humanoid HD into undead HD (removing the benefits of his humanoid HD), and you would add +2 HD because the Giant is large. It notes you keep any weapon proficiencies of the base creature, and it loses any special qualities (such as those of being a half-dragon or giant) that don't affect their melee or ranged attacks (so he keeps the ability to throw stones and his claw/bite attacks).
Seriously people.
Normally the base creature is still alive. The issue is that the creature dies and is brought back. In the process a lot gets lost. I have never seen a guide on necromancy builds mention the advantage of different classes for zombies, nor them keeping the attributes for the bones at every 4 levels.
Having a zombie with a strength that is 6 higher than normal would be a big difference in the ability to hit a target.
Normally the base creature is still alive. The issue is that the creature dies and is brought back. In the process a lot gets lost. I have never seen a guide on necromancy builds mention the advantage of different classes for zombies, nor them keeping the attributes for the bones at every 4 levels.
Having a zombie with a strength that is 6 higher than normal would be a big difference in the ability to hit a target.
Ok, tell you what. Next time we're playing D&D, let's return people back to level 1 when we use raise dead. I mean, a lot is lost in the process since we say it does, right? I mean, despite the fact the template specifically says what is lost and what isn't, let's add more to it, right? That makes perfect sense.
The base creature is the statblock you are making undead. It's not complicated, and you are intentionally making it so to try and create some sort of disruption.
As for reading a guide for necromancy or different classes, there's a reason for that. It's not worth the effort. If the only thing that is different between a rogue zombie and a warrior zombie is a few weapon proficiencies, who gives a turkey? Just give the rogue a longspear and be done with it. Or better yet, make the rogue a skeleton and capitalize on its likely high dexterity.
Meanwhile, do you really think it would be worth it to go out and try to find a giant who had 24 levels of a PC class, who had theoretically put all 6 of his ability score increases into Strength? Seriously? I'm going to go out and find a giant that's some +12 CR higher than a normal giant of his kind, just so I can get a +3 to hit and damage? How am I going to find that guy, I wonder. I'd never write something like that as a suggestion for picking good undead options.
I might however say "Finding orc warriors would be better than human warriors, because the orcs have a +4 racial bonus to their strength modifiers, and being warriors they're more likely to prioritize strength". I might even say "If you find an unusual specimen with above average ability scores, or one that is wielding an unusual weapon, consider animating them. Creatures with advanced hit dice, giant templates, advanced templates, or natural size increases all make for high quality undead."
I might even state "avoid dwarfs as undead options because their constitution is lost on them, while elven undead are naturally more spry and you can ignore their Con penalty".
You won't notice me going "Hey, see if you can find a 20th level rogue to animate over a strong warrior".
Zombies gain HD based on their size. Not their class levels or their racial HD. An ogre zombie has +2 HD for a total of 6 HD because it is large. It is not gaining HD because it was "humanoid" before this. Again with all this adding rules that aren't there.
Likewise, it says to remove all the HD gained from class levels. It notes that the zombies retain nothing except the PROFICIENCIES of the base creature. That is that a bard turned into a zombie gets to use his whip. He doesn't get to use bardic music. It's not rocket science people. It spells it out right there in the book. The term "base creature" is one used in templates and has been since they were added in 3E.
“Zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead), referred to hereafter as the base creature.The "base creature" is whatever you are applying the template to. If you are applying the template to a half-dragon frost giant with 20 levels of warrior it's still the "base creature". Now it goes on to say that you would remove the HD gained from his warrior levels, turn all his humanoid HD into undead HD (removing the benefits of his humanoid HD), and you would add +2 HD because the Giant is large. It notes you keep any weapon proficiencies of the base creature, and it loses any special qualities (such as those of being a half-dragon or giant) that don't affect their melee or ranged attacks (so he keeps the ability to throw stones and his claw/bite attacks).
Seriously people.
Seriously.
The templates are for use by the DM, easy of use. So they can make up appropriate monsters quickly and easily. Given that, the rules don't really mean anything as they are all up to DM fiat. The PC trying to say their newly created zombie gets a free +5 to a stat because it had some fluffy background of being a 20th level corpse before being zombied should be smacked around with the rule book.
Unfortunately, part of the rules that are normally the DMs domain were handed over to the PCs, some thought needs to be applied to that, which you seem to be vehemently against. These are the type of rules that get disallowed and modified in organized play. My points are made to make sure they stay balanced, not blindly handing away doubled stat bonuses because of some poor judgement in editing/copy&pasting. If you want to apply the bonus upfront and consider it part of the initial package, fine go ahead, just don't apply an additional set of ability bumps after the template is applied as it is already accounted for by the initial HD...
Even if it was a 17th level warrior "dropping class levels" leaves you with a single HD of warrior, that last HD being the racial HD.The text of the Bestiary says "drop HD gained by class levels (minimum of 1)"--does that mean drop them down to a minimum of one, or drop a minimum of one HD? It's unclear.
If it's the former, Skylancer4's suggestion makes sense.
However, in the Bestiary, the zombie is shown as simply "NE Medium undead", whereas in Bestiary 2 the juju zombie is shown as "Human juju zombie rogue 2, NE Medium undead (augmented human)".
The normal zombie does not have any class hit dice, only the two racial HD from being a Medium zombie. The juju zombie, on the other hand, retains its 2d8 from its two levels of rogue.
Until and unless we get an official answer, I will say that a normal zombie loses everything that is defined by class levels, including weapon proficiencies, ability bonuses, the works. A juju zombie retains all of those.
That's my interpretation, anyway. I don't thing the rules as written are specific or clear enough that no interpretation is required.
That is possibly just "one of those things" that happens as rules get get expanded and the publisher trys to get more descriptive. It is also a learning experience. As they see what works for stat blocks and other books, stat blocks will evolve and you'll get more information from them. Its also the type of thing that leads to confusion sadly.
Seriously.
The templates are for use by the DM, easy of use. So they can make up appropriate monsters quickly and easily. Given that, the rules don't really mean anything as they are all up to DM fiat. The PC trying to say their newly created zombie gets a free +5 to a stat because it had some fluffy background of being a 20th level corpse before being zombied should be smacked around with the rule book.
Exactly where do you think I said that? Exactly where would a PC GET that? You can't BUY that with starting cash, so even with premade PCs at an above average level, the GM is ultimately the guy he has to get his corpses from. Exactly at what point do you think that I was saying a PC can go out and pickup a random level 20 deadguy's body to get a zombie with a +5 strength (assuming of course not only was he level 20 but he also put all his stat boosts into Strength or Dexterity).
I didn't. I was discussing the rules. Yeah, go ahead and dismiss all the rules. I couldn't care less. Wanna know what? There are no rules. None of them. The rules are a LIE. They don't even exist because "it's all up to GM fiat". So if the rules don't matter, and you don't care, stop arguing stupid stuff at me. Stop spreading misinformation. A guy wanted to know, and I'm not going to lie to him.
Unfortunately, part of the rules that are normally the DMs domain were handed over to the PCs, some thought needs to be applied to that, which you seem to be vehemently against. These are the type of rules that get disallowed and modified in organized play. My points are made to make sure they stay balanced, not blindly handing away doubled stat bonuses because of some poor judgement in editing/copy&pasting. If you want to apply the bonus upfront and consider it part of the initial package, fine go ahead, just don't apply an additional set of ability bumps after the template is applied as it is already accounted for by the initial HD...
Oh joy oh joy praise to the GM and smite those dirty players. I just said how it works. You want a simple template, go lookup advanced, giant, young, celestial, and fiendish. The zombie template is a whole template. It rebuilds the monster as a zombie. Congratulations, we learned something today.
Sorry dude, but the base creature is the base creature. You don't have to like it, but stop lying about it. Exactly what makes it so appealing to come and spread misinformation or try to intentionally complicate the rules for a guy who was asking an honest question and just wanting the answer to that question? Who's to say he isn't a new GM and learning how to play the game, and he doesn't want to make a mistake?
Sheesh.
EDIT: Wanna know where the PC gets his corpses? The GM. Random hydra jumps out of a river and decides to make the PCs lunch, but fails and is now pushing daisies? Animate dead! Random garguantuan hydra with 30 hit dice jumps out of a big river and still doesn't manage to wipe the PCs? Animate dead! PC wanders into some cemetery and decides to animate dead? The GM decides what levels and classes they were, and for simplicity might say "Just stat them down as 1st level human commoners, and 3d6 1st level human warriors, and...let's say a 4th level barbarian using the elite array".
Somewhat separately:
A 4 HD giant is supposed to have its racial abilities modified by the template, not its racial and class abilities. The issue being some races are "defined" by a class (those that only have 1 HD) so in those cases it may be tricky to divy up the abilities.Those races defined by class have 0HD, not 1HD:
Drow are defined by their class levels--they do not possess racial Hit Dice.For example. The same applies to every other race with a '<such and such> characters' block in both Bestiaries, e.g. aasimar, orcs, kobolds... It's the interaction between the zombie template and these 0HD races that is really causing the trouble.
Tomato tomato, a race that has 1 HD is a race with racial HD, a class level will increase its HD beyond one to 2. A creature cannot have 0 HD and exist mechanically so they are the 1 HD class defined races.. Regardless I'm fairly sure we're on the same page semantics aside ;-)
You would keep the stat modifiers, no reason to track which stats had been increased during the leveling process for all intents and purposes they are the creatures original stats, and yea so if you animate an elite creature you get a bigger and better version, elite creatures tend to be rare.. I hardly see a problem with it. raising your fallen barbarian companion can be a nice way to get a high quality zombie on the cheap.