Hi All. I've been contemplating my first rogue build (a combat-oriented two-weapon fighter halfling), and I have a few questions.
First off, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with using bluff to feint in order to make one's opponent flat-footed. I've seen various thoughts on the feasibility of this, but I wanted to see if anyone had any hands-on experience.
Second, and more generally, I'm just curious with everyone's experience with a finesse rogue: my main worry is that if I don't score sneak attack, I won't be contributing much. How often do you find yourself able to get sneak attack? Did you feel viable in combat (with all the skill points, I'm not worried about contributing out of combat)?
Also, I'm considering taking one or more levels of Alchemist (vivisectionist) - I like the class, and I feel the access to a few self-buffs, plus the mutagen, would be a really nice addition to the build. Plus, I won't lose any progression on sneak attack, so there doesn't seem to be much lost with a bit of a dip. Does anyone have any thoughts on this, in any regard? My current thought is to start with 2 levels of Rogue, then 1 of Alchemist - from there, I may just go straight rogue, or perhaps keep the 2:1 pattern up.
Thanks, All.
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I do the feint thing with my bard and it works great. However he is not TWF so blowing a move action (have combat expertise and improved feint feats) is not a big deal. Since you are going TWF you would want that full attack. He is also human so I had that extra feat to work with. I have trouble seeing you take TWF/finesse and CE and im. Feint. You can use a standard action to feint but you risk the target moving away and blowing a turn.
I dont have the answer for you but I like the way you are thinking about options. Its good to understand looking for ways to score besides handcuffing yourself to a flank partner. Nothing wrong with the flank partner route but its nice to have a plan B. I am probably just telling you stuff you already know.
/side track I think since halflings get a penalty to intimidate it would be nice to see them get a bonus to feint or something. Sorry little upset that small races are all penalties while others like half-orc are all bonuses. /side track
I think Rogue is the best dip class. I like the idea of rogue 2/ rest vivisectionist. Get evasion and trap finding and then go Alchy all the way. Sounds like a really fun build with lots of options. The rogue, while classic, is looking awfully sad and lonely these days.
The reason why finesse rogues work well because sneak attack still does a lot of damage, even with a comparatively low strength. You might not do gobs of damage, but you will be comparable to other melee characters when you are flanking etc.
In truth if you make a finesse rogue, you will still need a little bit of strength. In fact, I'd say you can do quite well with a 13 Str, just having enough to get power attack. Generally any melee character wants power attack. Even though you will have a less of an attack bonus that full BAB classes, it comes in handy against large foes with crap AC. Finesse rogues also can jump effortlessly between ranged and melee.
With vivisectionist levels, you can hulk out and add more to your strength, but you may want to find a way to carry a 2H weapon to get the better damage out of power attack (almost as much on average as another die of sneak attack every 6 or so BAB).
Thanks for the feedback, you two.
Pan - I was also worried action economy when using feinting, since, like you say, getting full attacks are a crucial part of the build. As for feats, I actually feel like I'll be doing alright - if I take the swashbuckler archetype, I can take combat trick an extra time, which helps take the pressure off things a bit. The thought of going straight alchemist after 2 levels of rogue is a good one - if I take the preservationist archetype, I gain summon nature's ally, which I could use to gain an on-demand flanking buddy. Like you say, it's a fun, option-filled build, which is really what I'm going for with this character - I just want to make sure that it's somewhat viable as well.
One other option I've seen is taking Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses, but that's also feat and action intensive, and a bit more conditional than I like. I may just either wield daggers, which I could throw, or carry a sling and take quick draw, and pump initiative, and hope to win initiative in the surprise round for a ranged sneak attack, then move in and flank. It's the relative conditionality of the build which makes me wary of it, because otherwise I really like the kind of character it would entail.
Anburaid, you make some good points too. Were I to go that route, though, I would probably forgo a two-weapon fighting altogether, and just pick a great axe or falcata wielding half-orc (which I've thought about, too). 13 Str on a halfling might be more trouble than it's worth, given the Dex-focus of the build.
Just a follow-up thought...
The Scout archetype lets you deal sneak attack damage at the end of a charge at 4th level, and on your first attack after moving 10 feet at the 8th level. All that movement would be no good for two-weapon fighting, but you could remedy that in one of two ways: focusing on a two-handed weapon build (like anburaid was saying), or you could just charge in on the first round, then two-weapon fight from there. So for instance, if you go 2 rogue/1 vivisectionist/2 rogue, you have the charge ability at level 5. I might muse on this direction, as it'd give me a little added flexibility/control in obtaining my sneak attack, which would be nice.