OK, there's some pretty awesome stuff in UC. Here's a teaser of some feats that add a huge amount of damage to nonlethal bludgeoning sneak attacks:
It seems that you can deal about 4x normal sneak attack damage (double dice +3 for each dice) as long as its nonlethal and with fists or brass knuckles (you only lose 1 per dice to switch to a different bludgeoning weapon, and it does save two feats). This comes down to 20d6+60 sneak attack damage at level 19. The +60 may even multiply on a critical, since the feat isn't clear about whether the extra damage is considered part of the sneak attack damage. This only applies when the foe is flat-footed, not just from a flank, though there's a pretty solid way to engineer this with some other UC feats.
EDIT: There isn't because I wasn't being careful with wording--you'll just have to use Grease as usual to get people Flat-Footed
Most of the stuff you need can be taken at low levels (though obviously by level 5 when you can first complete the combo, you're 'only' doing 6d6+18 sneak attack damage, not 20d6+60).
If you have UC and are reading along at home, the feats are Sap Adept, Sap Master, and Knockout Artist if you like for the last +1 per dice (though it requires Improved Unarmed Strike).
You should be able to do this by 9 quite easily if you pass on the Knockout Artist feat for the time being (which is why I listed the damage as 10d6+20 instead of 10d6+30).
I hesitate to even really call this a 'combo', since the meat of the damage comes from two feats that are in the same chain. It seems like a lot, though. Granted if the enemy is immune to nonlethal damage, you'll have wasted two feats, but the rest of the build is a solid two-weapon fighting build.
20d6+60 is 130 on average, so you're doing 650 damage from sneak attack alone if you hit with only 5 attacks (not hard at level 19+).
My personal judgment is that comparatively this is a bit much. What do you think?
Caveat: I have not read the actual rules text of the feats in question. I am using your wording.
Denied Dexterity bonus is not the same thing as flat-footed. Generally speaking, the only time a character is flat-footed is before they have made their first action in a combat (ie, surprise round and first round before their initiative). Feinting does not cause the flat-footed status; it denies Dex bonus. Flat-footed means no Dex bonus, but no Dex bonus does not always mean flat-footed. If the feats in question require a flat-footed target, then feinting won't help, even if you can do it as part of a full attack.This only applies when the foe is flat-footed, not just from a flank, though there's a pretty solid way to engineer this with some other UC feats.
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Then you take Improved Two-Weapon Feint at level 9 if you can (depending on if you had a Combat Trick left to use at level 8 to pick up the pre-req)--this lets you sacrifice your first attack from your primary weapon every 2 rounds to do a free feint that makes them lose their Dex bonus until the end of your next turn (hence why you only need to use it once every two rounds).
Apologies, you are absolutely right sir. I shouldn't make that mistake as I've pointed it out to others in game many times as the GM in other situations. Color me embarrassed. That's what I get for blazing through the entire feats section in one hour. Thanks for your prompt whack on the head--I have in fact edited the OP so that others don't get caught up in that shenanigans.
However, while Improved Two Weapon Feint is still excellent for normal Rogues, it looks like the Rogues using this build will have to go back to the old stand-by and cast Grease like they used to. Ah, Grease. Pathfinder made it so much more powerful by taking out the 'if you have 5 ranks in Balance you can Balance without being flat-footed' clause from 3.5. The combo still works in that case:
Cross Narrow Surfaces/Uneven Ground [Table]
First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
Yep, grease would work. There are other ways to cause true flat-footedness as well. None of them are as simple or easy to set up as feinting, though, and that will do a lot to limit the all-around power of this build. That's a good thing; that means it's powerful in the right situation and OK the rest of the time. That's pretty much the goal, as long as "the right situation" isn't "do I have spells left?" ;)
Well, they're not as easy as feinting with the new Improved Two Weapon Feint feat. Grease is much more effective than feinting ever was until UC came out (feinting was more or less a 'trap' option for a Rogue in the Pathfinder core), presuming you have someone who can cast it or even just use a wand. So it sort of is the situation of "do I have spells left?" (I will grant that it doesn't work on constructs or undead, nor on creatures that were already immune to sneak attacks, but still)
I mean, even if the team wizard refused to help out and you're looking for true self-sufficiency, for the same number of feats as Improved Two Weapon Feint you can take Skill Focus: Knowledge (any) and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), plus Improved Familiar at which point you get a familiar and arm it with a wand of Grease (you can probably do it with one fewer feat and a monkey, but it's less contentious with the Improved Familiar). You don't really care about the DC, and it some ways it's better if it's low since you'll be walking out there onto the Grease too. If you train in UMD and your familiar has decent Cha (Lyrakien is a good choice for this if you are CG), it should be able to make the check easily.
One other thing I checked--I stacked up the damage of each of these sneak attacks against the average monster HP by CR. Even if you only land your attacks at your highest base attack bonus and always miss with every other attack, you will still defeat an on-CR opponent with just those two attacks (you'll need three starting around 12th level but by then you should have reliable access to Haste or Boots of Speed).
Grease is really, really easy to defeat. If you don't try to move, you aren't considered flat-footed ("Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed").
Also, as you mentioned, undead and constructs are completely immune to this because it requires dealing nonlethal damage, and undead in particular are the second most common enemy type (after humanoids) until rather high levels (when outsiders replace them).
I think it's fine. It's a great Thief-style "sap the guard from stealth to knock him out" feat chain that can have serious combat applications if you work at it and work as a team. It's not something you can really exploit solo to get massive amounts of sneak attack damage regularly.
It's not as apparent without access to UM, but you actually do keep 2 points of damage per dice even on regular old sneak attacks. The main use I'm thinking of now with Grease would probably also involve switch-hitting with two (or three with Haste) hand crossbows loaded with blunt bolts (from the APG). That way, you can get a full attack on round 1 since you needn't advance, and if you win initiative, they are simply toast.
The alternative, non-switch-hitter version could go full archer and rely on Rapid Shot for similar benefits. I don't think that would give you the necessary options, however.
With the switch-hitter, you pretty much defeat one opponent who you beat in initiative by yourself. You then have the familiar (or other action-giver if you like) use the wand of Grease on either an enemy that will need to close with your allies to do damage (and your allies stay out of striking distance so it has to move) or on an enemy that will want to escape from melee with your allies (who of course will go into melee range of that enemy). That way even if the enemy stays put to deny you the mega death sneak attack, you've had a large effect by forcing it to stay put when it would have wanted to move.
Even more clever/devious (and perhaps a reason that the pure archer might have a chance after all) would be to have the Familiar ready an action to Grease in the middle of a creature's movement. Every turn if appropriate.
I guess what I'm saying is--it seems dangerous to set up a power that's so damaging and rely on players not finding a way to use it that often. Players are clever and resourceful--they'll probably think of something even sneakier than what I mentioned here (which I came up with in just a few minutes and without the advantage of playing the character through a real game).
Granted, there's other things than this to raise eyebrows and get Rogues drooling in UC (there's a feat you can take, along with two others from the core, that will stagger any enemy hit by two of your sneak attacks in the same round for at least one round regardless of saves).
does this set up make thug / enforcer extremely amusing?
does this set up make thug / enforcer extremely amusing?
Honestly your talking about a match on a fire at that point. The thug/enforcer build is useful in de-buffing and forcing attacks of opportunity as the foes flee.
It doesn't matter much if you have a shaken or frightened unconscious foe, because they aren't taking any actions but grappling the floor at that point.
this is awesome:
Vivisectionist stacks with Beast-morph ...
at level 14 I can make 14d6+42+str. etc damage.
and attack with pounce, grab, constrict and rake, all at once.
I love you Paizo :)
too bad the permanent greater ivisibility at lvl 16 only takes away dex and don't make them flatfooted :(
Edit: don't forget I can two-weapon wield 2 merciful heavy flails with my 4 hands ... damn this build is ridicilous.
Its feat intensive, but Enforcer + Shattered Defenses will get your opponent flat footted. Enforcer gives a free intimidate when you deal non-lethal damage. Shattered defenses makes an opponent who is shaken that you hit flat-footed to future attacks for 1 round.
Thus: Supprize round attack- get sneak + free intimidate.
round 1: 1st attack to hit gets no sneak (unless they are still suprized), causes future attacks to be flat footed until end of next round.
All further attacks now have sneak until you fail to hit in a round or the shaken wears off.