I love the idea of the witch, but I also prefer spontaneous casting. And with the oracle running a game with only spontaneous casters (sorcerer, oracle, bard) seems very easy to do.
But would simply switching the sorcerers spell list have any unintended side effects I'm not aware of just now? Anything I would have to look out for?
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My question to you...if you love the witch, why put aside so many of the things that give it it's flavor? Hexes, familiar, patron, etc... Why don't you give this a try instead:
Spontaneous Casting Witch
Taking this archtype, a witch becomes a spontaneous spellcaster. This archtype MUST be taken at first level. The witch's spells per day chart is replaced with that of the sorcerer. The witch gains a spells known chart, also identical to that of the sorcerer. Patron spells function similarly to bloodline bonus spells...they are spells that the witch automatically knows, beyond those learned on the spells known chart. The witch's skill points increase to 4+ Int bonus per level. Finally, a witch with this archtype associates her Charisma or Wisdom score with her spellcasting, not her intelligence. This choice must be made when the first level of witch is taken, and can not be changed.
There, sponteneous casting, plus all the other stuff that makes a witch unique.
Part of the balance of spontaneous casters is that they don't get to load up on Int and skill points or bonuses to will saves.
What? It boggles the mind.
I support Kthulu's post, except the wisdom option. I used the option for an npc I built, though I took away the familiar as well, but not the bonus spells. Instead having the spells burned into her mind by a powerful devil.
What? It boggles the mind.
Spontaneous casters are so powerful that we need a way to rein them in. So we punish them by giving them a useless stat for prime-stat. If we didn't, they would be way out of control.
Simple logic.
;)
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I have a strong distaste for making Int and Wis casters spontaneous casters. Part of the balance of spontaneous casters is that they don't get to load up on Int and skill points or bonuses to will saves.
Yes, I know there are sorcerer archetypes that use Int and Wis. I don't allow those in my home games either.
So, use my archetype with the Charisma option only.
Simples!
I wonder, how bad would it be to let sorcerers pick their known spells from all spells, not just the wizard list?
Probably harmless.
I wonder, how bad would it be to let sorcerers pick their known spells from all spells, not just the wizard list?Probably harmless.
Yeah, spells have been so thoroughly combed over with the swap from 3.5 to PF that I don't see it as a problem. It's hard to say that one list is so powerful that it must be forbidden from casting from another list.
Establish a "base level" for spells on other caster lists, though. Remember, there are three types of caster out there: 9th, 6th, and 4th. It would be easy to have the sorcerer treat all 6-caster spells as level+1 for adding it to their list and 4-caster spells as double the original level. Obviously that won't be an issue for most spells, as Cleric & Wizard provide an excellent baseline, but it could come up for unique spells.
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Probably harmless.
Yeah, spells have been so thoroughly combed over with the swap from 3.5 to PF that I don't see it as a problem. It's hard to say that one list is so powerful that it must be forbidden from casting from another list.
Establish a "base level" for spells on other caster lists, though. Remember, there are three types of caster out there: 9th, 6th, and 4th. It would be easy to have the sorcerer treat all 6-caster spells as level+1 for adding it to their list and 4-caster spells as double the original level. Obviously that won't be an issue for most spells, as Cleric & Wizard provide an excellent baseline, but it could come up for unique spells.
As a vague guideline, do it like this:
If you want a spell that is on the sorcerer/wizard list and is a lower level on another list, too bad. You get it at the sorcerer/wizard level.
If you want a spell from another full caster's list, you learn the spell as its normal level.
If you want a spell from a class spell list that does not go up to 9, look at what level that class gains access to that spell level. Then look at sorcerer and see what the highest level spell you can cast at that level is. You learn it as a spell of that level.
For example, you want to learn lead blades. It's a 1st level ranger spell. A ranger gains level 1 spells at level 4. At level 4, the highest level spell a sorcerer can cast is 2nd. You learn it as a 2nd level spell.
3.5 psionics have a feat that allows you to add one power to your powers known that can be from any power list, but has to be 1 level lower than the maximum power you can mainfest.
I think the should work well for sorcerers, and since it takes a feat, you'd probably use it only for one or two spells not on your spell list, that you really, really want.
This may be interesting to note:
From the sorcerer entry in the PRD.
"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study."
What would you say to a fey sorcerer wanting to learn faerie fire or an infernal sorcerer wanting to learn unholy blight?
The probelm is that there is no explaination of that line in RAW, and it has just been copied directly from 3.5e where it wasn't adressed either.
"Some understanding through study" is completely undefined. If no actual prerequisite exist, there would be no need for a sorcerer list, because they could learn any spell in existance.
Yeah, it's pretty silly to have a rule that suggests something is possible but does nothing about it.
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The probelm is that there is no explaination of that line in RAW, and it has just been copied directly from 3.5e where it wasn't adressed either.
"Some understanding through study" is completely undefined. If no actual prerequisite exist, there would be no need for a sorcerer list, because they could learn any spell in existance.
It doesn't need explanation, it needs DM adjudication. The sorcerer spell list is the commonly known spells among sorcerers. Other spells are possible, but not common.
Not everything has to be strictly codified, even in systems that are already over-codified.
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I wonder, how bad would it be to let sorcerers pick their known spells from all spells, not just the wizard list?
You need to be careful about opening up the Paladin spell list. However, allowing sorcerers to select from the cleric spell list wouldn't be bad. Depending on bloodline, I could also see opening up the druid spell list as well as some of the cleric domain lists.
In unearthered arcana (3.5) the generic spellcaster combines all spell lists and uses sorcerer spells per day/spells known.
Here is my take. I know it's a little rough and not very polished. You get 5 hexes (8 if you spend all your bloodline feats on hexes) and I tried to have the bloodline powers mix between spontaneous casting and hexes.
I think it's faily balanced, but pary tell me if I am wrong about that.
I myself find the capstone a little bland, so if you have any ideas...
Also, english is my second language, so please feel free to rewrite in proper english when needed.
WITCH BLOODLINE
Class Skill : Heal
Bonus Spells: Your bonus spell list is detemined by you familiar’s patron.
Bonus Feats : Extra Hex (you can take this feat multiple times), Combat casting, Improved Familiar, Skill Focus (Fly), Brew Potion, Deceitful, Endurance, Great Fortitude.
Bloodline Arcana: You select your spells known from the witch spell list. You also select a Hex from the Hex list at first level, and every level where you get a Bloodline power (3rd, 9th, 15th and 20th) You use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier for determinig the save DC of your hexes. You can’t choose major hexes before level 10 or grand hexes before level 18.
Bloodline Powers:
At first level, you gain a familiar choosed from the Witch list. This familiar is also tied to a patron, and this patron determines your bonus spell list. You gain access to those spells one level later than a witch would do. If you ever loose your familiar, you can’t spells from those list until you replace the familiar using the rules for doing so. Your familiar can’t learn spells from scrolls or from other familiars, and don’t add spells know to yours list above the one listed from it’s patron.
At 3rd level, You can use your spells to improve your hexes. When you use an hex, you may spend a spell slot to add half the spell level to the DC for resisting the hex.
At 9th level, your familiar gain the ability to temporarely learn spells from scrolls or other familiars. If your check is sucessfull, you may add the spell to you familiar bonus spell list for one day. The maximum number of spell levels you may add to your familiar’s list this way is equal to the maximum level spell you can cast.
At 15th level, you are able to use your spell to give you another shot at affecting someone with your hexes. By spending a 4th level spell, you can try to affect someone another time, even if you could not do so normally. You can do the same for major Hexes by spending a 6th level slot, and for grand hexes by spending a 8th level slot. You can get another try on any victim only once a day.
At 20th level, you may add the complete spell level of a slot you spend to determine the increase to your hexes DC and can retry to affect the victim as long as you have appropriate spell slot to burn.
I wonder, how bad would it be to let sorcerers pick their known spells from all spells, not just the wizard list?
Actually Tri, they can already. It says in the rules section of the sorcerers spells that he can pick a spell from the sor/woz spell list OR any other spell from which they have encountered or something like that. Go look. Since sorcerers basically come up with an idea and cast it when they learn their spells I don't see why they should need to encounter the spell first before leaening it. But its already in their description. Check it out. Btw, sorcerer is my favorite class that's why I saw this.
I wonder, how bad would it be to let sorcerers pick their known spells from all spells, not just the wizard list?Actually Tri, they can already. It says in the rules section of the sorcerers spells that he can pick a spell from the sor/woz spell list OR any other spell from which they have encountered or something like that. Go look. Since sorcerers basically come up with an idea and cast it when they learn their spells I don't see why they should need to encounter the spell first before leaening it. But its already in their description. Check it out. Btw, sorcerer is my favorite class that's why I saw this.
With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring.
I highly doubt they intended for a sorcerer to pick up cleric and druid spells with this, as they are not "new and unusual".