Don't think anyone will argue that the feats are definatly aimed at games where the players have weeks at a time everyonce in a while to get things made. since you only clock 1/2 time if you dont work a full 8hours in a session.
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I find that the rule that allow people to enchant while adventuring, especially while on guard duty, is awful.
As a GM I would give very bad circumstance modifier to the guy doing that both to his perceptions roll and his spellcraft rolls.
Personally I feel that under standard circumstances doing something more complicated than a potion or a low level scroll should be impossible. Unusual circumstances (ring of sustenance + magnificent mansion, special locations and so on) can allow more complex works.
Similarly I am old school when a player want to enchant an item in use. If the item is being enchanted it shouldn't be used until the enchantment is finished.
If you are writing runes in dragon blood upon a blade to "upgrade" it, using it in combat run the risk of destroying the already written runes and to contaminate the blood with foreign substances.
As a player I feel that a guy enchanting while on guard duty should be subject to a court martial for "dereliction of duty" as he will be incapable to do his job.
Most of my problem with MDT posts (and probably his with mine) is that we start from very different experiences. His experience say that it will end "with people having 4 and 5 times the WBL by level 15" and so it will destroy the game, my experience say that it will end with people having at worse +50%-75% the suggested WBL, something manageable with minor adjustments, and the players having so much will be a very rare occurrence.
Beside that he state things as absolutes and replying to him I take his statements at face value while probably he mean them as overstatements to emphasize his position. (the piece cited above probably is an example of that BTW)
Just for the record, the item creation feats and skills should be used in game, I am against people using them "before starting the game" to get more resources.
They use time and freeze resources for a period, that is part of the cost of using them, hand waving that cost away will damage the balance of the game.
I find that the rule that allow people to enchant while adventuring, especially while on guard duty, is awful.
It's not just when on guard duty. The overland travel charts assume about 8 hours of travel at walking speed. There's 24 hours a day and only 8 is dedicated to rest at night, even assuming that. That's a lot of extra time. And they ARE penalized heavily, 4 hours of work on the road only counts as 2 hours of work on the actual item IIRC. And you can still only work on one magic item at a time and one a day. Need to bang out a scroll of See Invis? Too bad, you're in the middle of working on that Ring of Sustenance, unless you want to lose all your progress.
The only "penalty" I give is that if you're working as you go I require an actual roll, if you're somewhere you're reasonably safe from distraction you can take 10.
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I'm not saying exactly how much more equipment Cleric B would have more than Cleric A, I am merely pointing out that assuming they accumulate a similar amount of treasure, and they sell some of that treasure, and those proceeds, at least in part, are used to buy magic items, then we would expect Cleric B's proceeds to go further than Cleric A's assuming Cleric B crafts anything at all.
I can't speculate what the end result would be, other than Cleric B would likely have more equipment than Cleric A. Maybe just a little more, maybe a lot more, all we know for sure is it should be more on average.
This is more or less what I was trying to point out. I think this very much depends on the group, the treasure the GM kicks out (or the module), etc.
In my experience the advantage of crafting feats is that given enough time you (and often by extension your group) are going to have more appropriate gear than the character who doesn't take the crafting feats. When you build a higher level character most groups just assume you can shop everything which means this benefit doesn't really exist.
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It's not just when on guard duty. ...
True, but:
Assuming you are a non-divine spellcaster you need to sleep 8 hours a day to recover your spells.
So 8 hours marching/adventuring, 8 hours sleeping, some time to eat, clean yourself, mend your gear and so on, 1 hour preparing your spells (15 minutes for spontaneous casters), almost 3 hours on guard duty (4 man party, assuming you spend some minute while the next guy arm up and get ready). Total at least 20 hours.
If the character is capable to spend the 4 hours of "free time" left in the day to enchant stuff instead of relaxing a bit, doing that for several days and weeks in a row he has an iron self discipline.
It can be acceptable as long as the player is consistent in portraying him that way (or if he is motivated by some great need), much less if the only reason is that the player want a extra bit of gear.
I would require a precise schedule of how the guy is using his time and while I will not go out of the way to create trouble when he is enchanting, I will not remove wandering encounters to accommodate him (I generally roll dices to see at what hour of the day a wandering encounter happen).
It is not a "absolute" rule. conditions, motivation and so on will be taken in account. Simply I fell that enchanting something is not usually done on the roadside while camping.
When you build a higher level character most groups just assume you can shop everything which means this benefit doesn't really exist.
Exactly. In my experience the gear of a character that join a group at high level is way better optimized than the gear of the other members, even if they have the crafting feats.
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When you build a higher level character most groups just assume you can shop everything which means this benefit doesn't really exist.Exactly. In my experience the gear of a character that join a group at high level is way better optimized than the gear of the other members, even if they have the crafting feats.
This has been my experience too. I'm very strongly considering what I mentioned earlier, where I randomly generate double the loot they should have, and let them pick from that. If they have crafting feats, they can sell loot and buyt the appropriate new loot at the crafting cost. If they dont have crafting feats, they will be paying full market price on those. But then I need to figure out which portion of their starting gear they are allowed to trade in/sell.. hmm.....
It means writing an app or a script though.
You guys do make one very good point though. Crafting does take alot of downtime. Crafting mundane items also takes a ridiculous amount of downtime.
Classic Example: In AD&D it was remarked you could make a killing by buying ladders, cutting off the rungs, and selling the 10 fool poles.
in pathfinder, you dont pay the ladder price, you pay half the price of the 10 foot poles, and the amount of time you take to craft it is immense. So cutting the rungs off the two ladders costs you extra money, and it takes you like a week to do it.
The crafting system in Pathfinder could use some work, to be sure, but at the same time, I've seen worse.
I don't think it really hits the fan until you hit craft wondrous item.
Getting your potions and scrolls at half price is hardly a big, game breaking deal.
The way the system works, if you about double the cost of a weapon you get +1. A fighter getting double wealth out of an item is essentially getting +1 to hit and damage, and +1 to armor class... not too overpowered for a feat.
If you have 2 weapon users in the group though, that 1 feat gets the group 2 +1 's to hit and everyone gets +1 to ac. Powerful, but not AOoooga territory.
But the craft wondrous item feat makes too much stuff. It makes your bag of holding, headband, goggles, boots, belt, gloves, bracers. and i'm probably forgetting something. It can near double a groups effective wealth.
Would breaking up the items that the craft wondrous item feat can make help?
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You are ignoring the fact that the feat generally works fine when you are playing the game. It's only 'problematic' when you craft higher level characters with the assumption that they get double wealth.
One other 'fix' to the crafting problem is time. Give everyone X gold worth of items or gold. If they choose to craft everything they can buy the material components with gold and start crafting but they don't benefit from their crafting until they finish creating it. In the mean time the pirates are invading the city or... insert plot here.
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Would breaking up the items that the craft wondrous item feat can make help?
Probably, but the flipside there are already several crafting feats.
Weapon and armor will produce "only" 3 major items for each martial player character (armor, shield and weapon or armor and 2 weapons), but they usually are some of the strongest items in game.Wondrous items will produce several items but generally they will be middle strength. A rule I have used from day one of the 3.0 is that stat enhancing items require a caster with x3 the item bonus to be made (i.e. 6th level to make a +2, 12th level for a +4 and 18th level for a +6).
I have been using it for so long that I am unsure if it is a houserule or if itis somewhere in the rules.
As stat enhancing items can be one of the more unbalancing thing in game it is possible that that simple rule has make item crafting more balanced in my games.
As stat enhancing items can be one of the more unbalancing thing in game it is possible that that simple rule has make item crafting more balanced in my games.
I've found stat items are more balancing than unbalancing. And your houserule is harsh.
On the topic of breaking up CWI, I'd say combining potion/scroll and wand/staff instead if not as well.
Ok so nothing to do with the class but crafting feats the rules are a gray area and its more of DMs discretion then?
Any idea what would have given him this idea? was it that way in a one of the old D&D editions?
I'd tend to doubt it; if it were up to me, he'd have to show proof that it wasn't some D&D-based videogame/computergame/cheatcode or someones' houserule that he mistook for an actual rule about the wizard's half price thingy.
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As stat enhancing items can be one of the more unbalancing thing in game it is possible that that simple rule has make item crafting more balanced in my games.I've found stat items are more balancing than unbalancing. And your houserule is harsh.
On the topic of breaking up CWI, I'd say combining potion/scroll and wand/staff instead if not as well.
Buying a +6 item before you can craft it isn't difficult or particularly costly.
Buying 4 or 5 items that give you +6 to all the physical stats, wisdom and your primary stat if it is not wisdom is costly and should be costly.That kind of rule assure that the guy secondary stats aren't already buffed to the max at low level.
After all to give a +5 to a weapon a crafter need to be 15th level.
Requiring him to be 18th level to give a +6 to a stat seem perfectly in line (BTW, I allow items with odd stat bonuses, i.e. +1, +3, +5).
You are ignoring the fact that the feat generally works fine when you are playing the game. It's only 'problematic' when you craft higher level characters with the assumption that they get double wealth.
I'm not ignoring it i simply disagree with you that its a fact. Unless the party is going from level 1 no ones to elminster in a single baseball season there's plenty of downtime for crafting. Even if you are keeping your party on the run a crafter is essentially gaining 250 gp's per day.
As a background for a character its kind of odd if "Oh yeah, last week i was slinging cantrips, but now check out this timestop!"
( you can craft 1,000 gp an 8 hour day, you can work 4 hours on the road, road time is half as effective as lab time)
In the mean time the pirates are invading the city or... insert plot here.
Do you keep having that happen though? If you have a constant state of emergency and the city is being attacked every day it tends to take out the feel of the threat.... as if every day were christmas.
Unless you allow players to use the "enchanting around a campfire and while on guard duty" rule, I fail to see how taking the feat will be more efficient than ordering the stuff in a big city.
Well, inasmuch as the "enchanting on the go" segment is part of the RAW, this being a rules thread and all, I would suppose that it would be assumed that RAW was in play, including the ability to get 2 hours of progress on crafting a magic item by devoting 4 hours of actual time while away from the lab.
Also, there's a number of different ways to look at "efficiency" - from a time perspective, assuming that the game in question has an available NPC to be commissioned, the question of time-efficiency becomes one of comparative Spellcraft (or other relevant skill) modifiers and whether or not the PC with the feat plans to be crafting on the road or in a lab. Most PCs are capable of taking the +5 bump to the DC to "rush" an item, allowing them to complete it in half the time (all other factors being equal), whereas most NPCs probably cannot do so reliably.
From the standpoint of monetary efficiency, regardless of what the *Players* expect, the *Characters* (who have no way to know if there will be any additional treasure headed their way, or how much it will be worth) will always view spending half the purchase cost of an item to obtain that item over the same length of time to be more efficient. Spending half the price to get the item in half the time is even more efficient. Again, this is from the perspective of the Characters, who are actually performing the actions and making the choices. And isn't that the perspective that matters most in an RPG?
From the standpoint of power throughput, most NPC items will be crafted at minimum Caster Level and based on a moderate caster stat. Most PCs will have a higher number in their relevant caster stat than crafting NPCs, and will have the Spellcraft modifiers to support creation of items at caster levels higher than the minimums. Perhaps not at the same time as rushing the crafting, and certainly not as the same cost, but that's irrelevant to determining the efficiency of healing throughput from a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds - from an NPC, that wand will heal 3d8+5 HP by default, whereas a higher level PC could elect to bump the CL. Admittedly, increasing the CL increases the cost of the item, but the PC-crafted wand will increase in cost by X compared to the commissioned wand's cost increasing by 2X.
There are many different ways to measure efficiency.
When you order something you have to wait for the guy doing the work to complete it but you are free to do whatever you want and don't burn time and spells every day to enchant the item. You can even contact different enchanters to have multiple items done at the same time (probably for different characters).
If a PC is the guy doing the work he will use time and spells while working on the item and he will do 1 item at a time.
If there are multiple requests he can be end being slower than external enchanters.The only advantage will be that if he upgrading something that already exist the item will be available and could be use even while it is being enchanted, while in the other scenario the item is unavailable while the NPC enchant it (and there is a risk of the NPC disappearing with the item).
Unless you are very stringy with the people available to enchant items the advantages are outweighted by the disadvantage and the opportunity cost of not taking a different feat.
That there may be very few NPCs that can craft items at CL>10 does not automatically imply that the GM/setting is "Stingy with NPC enchanters."
Also, PCs need not burn spells if they can meet the crafting DC adjusted for missing those spells in the crafting process (+5 per missing spell, per RAW; this interpretation is implicitly entailed in, and upheld by, developer posts).
In general, it's true that (varying in accordance with the level of magic in the game as a whole) lower level magical items that are PC-crafted are very close in concrete value (gp, time, spells-expended, etc.) to NPC-crafted items. As caster level exceeds 10-12, this stops being the case in most default settings.
While items of CL>10 may be available for *purchase* in default settings, in large enough cities, this does not imply that such items can be easily made by NPCs in the world. One of the foundations of every published Campaign Setting that I'm familiar with is the existence of at least one period in the history of the setting where "things were better" - this trope includes magic items. Artifacts are almost never something that Bob down the street just whipped up yesterday afternoon... While it's not ever explicitly stated, the distribution of high-level spellcasters (regardless of whether or not they can craft items) among the general population compared to the items theoretically available for purchase indicates that the majority (varying with distribution between settings) of the CL>10 items for sale are recovered relics, not the creations of a modern craftsman.
Thus, as the PCs approach higher level, the crafting feats take on a greater significance. This is visible in the Crafting and WBL paradigm as an increased potential for serious APL/CR imbalance if Crafting feats allow expanded use of WBL.
+5 per missing spell, per RAW; this interpretation is implicitly entailed in, and upheld by, developer posts
-Do you happen to have a link to these? Whether or not the spell missing completely adds +5 or just not possessed by the caster adds +5 would clear up one of the more common readings of item creation.
+5 per missing spell, per RAW; this interpretation is implicitly entailed in, and upheld by, developer posts
-Do you happen to have a link to these? Whether or not the spell missing completely adds +5 or just not possessed by the caster adds +5 would clear up one of the more common readings of item creation.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9o7j
Can a character with Brew Potion create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it? (page 549)
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.
In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.
—Jason Bulmahn, 07/13/11
(Bold emphasis mine.)
A comment to this effect, with exceptionally similar wording, was made by Sean K. Reynolds in (IIRC) a thread referencing the creation of potions, around the same time that the FAQ was officially updated. Still looking for the link to SKR's comment; apologies if it's just echoing the FAQ.
Nevertheless, this reply clearly indicates that for non-potion, non-scroll, non-staff, non-wand, non-spell-trigger, non-spell-completion magic items, the creator need not prepare the spell in order to create the item and will cause the creation DC to increase by 5 for each such spell they do not prepare.
<tips hat>
Of course, this still leaves the door open on whether a character crafting an item has to *know* the spell they need to use to make the magic item, but that's a different can o' worms. ^_^;
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@ Doskious Steele
It is relatively simple to gauge what can be constructed in a city. You look what level of spellcasting services you can buy.
That information give you the approximate level of the highest arcane and divine caster present in the city and willing to work for money.
From there you can reasonably infer the number of lower level spellcasters present in the same city.
You say "from the character point of view" if is better to craft their stuff themselves.
Not really. Not for all of them if they are role players and not roll players.
How many of them have started the adventuring life for the quick buck without hard work option instead of being good doers?
To cite Dante (a player, not the poet) immortal words "I haven't studied magic to work".
The player could be willing to have his character spend 8 hours day adventuring, 8 hours sleeping, another 4 enchanting stuff, another 3 on guard duty and 1 hour doing other stuff including eating and going to the bathroom or behind the bush, day after day.
For the character it all depend on who you are playing. If he is obsessed with owning the biggest magic items, ok, but I hope you are portraying him that way even when the party is dividing the treasure and in his everyday behaviour.
I (in RL) and my characters would be willing to pay more for the privilege to have free time for fun and relaxing.
Putting that aside you can work only on one project at a time.
If you are enhancing the paladin sword you will not work on your cloak of protection or the wand of CLW.
You can specialize in a field of crafting and wondrous items will cover a large portion of the possible items, but you will never be capable of doing all the possible stuff unless you are willing to cripple your access to non crafting feats.
--
Note that:
In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
mean that you can't make those items without knowing the spell.
It is possible to give different interpretations, but I would require the guy constructing one of these items to memorize and use up the spell. [Edit: I see that the quote you cited while I was typing this confirmed that]
The +5 to the DC pile up fast too. Lacking a spell and rushing the job is a +10 to the DC.
That will make most people pause, as failing the roll mean you lose all the time and material used.
BTW, about adding new abilities to an item.
- What happens if you fail the roll and "the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted"? You destroy the item original capabilities or you keep them? Food for thought.
- It is written somewhere that you can use an item while it is being upgraded? I have seen it taken for granted, but the rules are silent on that.
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You are ignoring the fact that the feat generally works fine when you are playing the game. It's only 'problematic' when you craft higher level characters with the assumption that they get double wealth.I'm not ignoring it i simply disagree with you that its a fact. Unless the party is going from level 1 no ones to elminster in a single baseball season there's plenty of downtime for crafting. Even if you are keeping your party on the run a crafter is essentially gaining 250 gp's per day.
As a background for a character its kind of odd if "Oh yeah, last week i was slinging cantrips, but now check out this timestop!"
( you can craft 1,000 gp an 8 hour day, you can work 4 hours on the road, road time is half as effective as lab time)
I don't even get how this applies to what I said.
In the mean time the pirates are invading the city or... insert plot here.Do you keep having that happen though? If you have a constant state of emergency and the city is being attacked every day it tends to take out the feel of the threat.... as if every day were christmas.
In most adventures that I've run or played in, a whole lot happens in a short period of time. By the time they are over the characters are 2-3 levels higher and a lot richer. Then the players get a break for a month or two before the stuff hits the fan again.
A lot can happen in that 90? days it takes you to craft enough gear for a 10th level character. In the mean time the character has either gone without items for a while or bought things at full price like everyone else. By the time they have crafted everything, total wealth for the party will have gone up and things will have equalized to a more reasonable state.
I don't even get how this applies to what I said.
You said the feat works fine when leveling up organically. I do not agree that the feat works fine while leveling up organically.
A lot can happen in that 90? days it takes you to craft enough gear for a 10th level character. In the mean time the character has either gone without items for a while or bought things at full price like everyone else. By the time they have crafted everything, total wealth for the party will have gone up and things will have equalized to a more reasonable state.
I'm not getting how this is supposed to help. At all. Its the 90 days you're not adventuring, thats the 90 days your WBL isn't going up and you're not adventuring.
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I'm not getting how this is supposed to help. At all. Its the 90 days you're not adventuring, thats the 90 days your WBL isn't going up and you're not adventuring.
And in those 90 days (124 to double his WBL at level 10, to be precise) he has done only his gear. Pity, the rest of the party is still at standard WBL.
Or if he has done orders for the other guys the whole party is 25% above WBL.
@ Doskious Steele
It is relatively simple to gauge what can be constructed in a city. You look what level of spellcasting services you can buy.
That information give you the approximate level of the highest arcane and divine caster present in the city and willing to work for money.
From there you can reasonably infer the number of lower level spellcasters present in the same city.
I don't disagree with this. At the same time... How many of them have crafting feats? How many of them have crafting feats that allow them to craft what you want to commission? How many of them have crafting feats that let them craft what you want to commission and don't have existing projects at the moment? (Yes, these are not necessarily questions that will be relevant to *every* game, but I don't see anything to support the assumption that you seem to make in your analysis that these questions will *never* be relevant, and can thus be ignored.)
You say "from the character point of view" if is better to craft their stuff themselves.
Not really. Not for all of them if they are role players and not roll players.
How many of them have started the adventuring life for the quick buck without hard work option instead of being good doers?
To cite Dante (a player, not the poet) immortal words "I haven't studied magic to work".The player could be willing to have his character spend 8 hours day adventuring, 8 hours sleeping, another 4 enchanting stuff, another 3 on guard duty and 1 hour doing other stuff including eating and going to the bathroom or behind the bush, day after day.
For the character it all depend on who you are playing. If he is obsessed with owning the biggest magic items, ok, but I hope you are portraying him that way even when the party is dividing the treasure and in his everyday behaviour.I (in RL) and my characters would be willing to pay more for the privilege to have free time for fun and relaxing.
I never said that the measures of efficiency I identified were the only ones. I submit, however, that you (in RL) and your characters are, on at least one scale, not being efficient in your willingness to pay someone to allow for free time and relaxation. You identified an inability to see the efficiencies provided by self-crafting ("I fail to see how taking the feat will be more efficient than ordering the stuff in a big city"); I was endeavouring to identify some for you.
I agree that it is the perceptions of the character that matter in deciding how that character will act. In my remarks about character preference, the notion that the putative character I identified as having preferences was a character who was in favor of efficiency was intended to be implicit.
Also, I don't buy the notion that Adventuring Isn't Work. We might not see it as work because we're not slogging through the mud, climbing the cliff, fighting the dragon, working the magic, or swinging the sword, but if Adventuring wasn't Work, there would be a LOT more people doing it. The game is designed to be a game, and therefore as little like work in execution as possible.
The +5 to the DC pile up fast too. Lacking a spell and rushing the job is a +10 to the DC.
That will make most people pause, as failing the roll mean you lose all the time and material used.
While there are a number of items with multiple spell prerequisites, a rather large portion of items (mostly Wondrous Items) only require one spell. The DC for creating an item is, by default, 5+CL. Assuming that a character is making an item at the appropriate CL or higher, chances are good that the character has ranks in Spellcraft (or the alternate skill the character uses for crafting) equal to or greater than the CL of the item. Chances are also good that Spellcraft (or the alternate skill) is a class skill for the character. This means that the character would need to either roll a 12 or better to rush and skip one prerequisite, or have some other source by which he/she can obtain an additional +2 to Spellcraft (or the alternate skill) such as INT 14+, an expensive lab (or masterwork tools in the case of a Craft skill), or the Skill Focus: Spellcraft feat, all of which are fairly easy to obtain at moderate level or higher. If the character is possessed of INT 14+, Skill Focus, *and* a set of masterwork tools or access to a good lab, the character can ignore two prerequisites and still rush. While this might not be within reach of an NPC (depending on different factors), it probably will be within the capabilities of a PC crafter, especially one who has planned for the crafting potential. Naturally, for every 5 levels that the character's ranks in the relevant skill exceed the caster level of the item to be crafted, the character can ignore yet another prerequisite.
It is written somewhere that you can use an item while it is being upgraded? I have seen it taken for granted, but the rules are silent on that.
The rules are silent on this issue, and that leaves two, mutually exclusive, possibilities, resolved on a per-GM basis:
(1) The rules are precise delimiters that define in detail exactly what can be done, and only those things that can be done as defined within the rules are possible. (So, since it's undefined, the answer would be "No, you can't.")
(2) The rules are guidelines that show boundary conditions, but otherwise only act to limit potential when potential is explicitly limited and otherwise leave an open field. (So, since it's undefined, the answer would be "There's nothing preventing it, so yes.")
I prefer the second interpretation.
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You identified an inability to see the efficiencies provided by self-crafting ("I fail to see how taking the feat will be more efficient than ordering the stuff in a big city"); I was endeavouring to identify some for you.
You forget that was said as a reply to mdt post, not in a vacuum.
Ah, well, that's the thing then. In my game, time is not elastic. So if they pay someone to do something, sometimes it's a couple of days in game, sometimes it's 3 months in game. And there's not always down time. One example was recently, they actually had a fight while waiting for a wand of cure light to get crafted, ran out of healing, and had to retreat and go back to town and wait on the wand before they could go on. If they wait 3 months for something without adventuring in my game, then the plot goes on, and things change, and what they were persuing before is long gone, they have to go out and find something else, or something bad has already happened.
So,if your crafting feats will never raise your group WBL above the normal level I don't see an advantage in taking the feat against the cost of not taking a different feat.
You can get a item faster as mdt say, or not if you are in the middle of a different project.
In his CLW example, with normal rules, there would have been a 75% chance of finding one in a small town (a location with a population of 200-2.000 persons). In 3 months the players could have visited several small towns and found a wand oc CLW for sale.
If you want to get several items spreading the orders around to several crafters, even if there is a wait time, will be probably faster than having the same guy produce all the items.
I don't disagree with this. At the same time... How many of them have crafting feats? How many of them have crafting feats that allow them to craft what you want to commission? How many of them have crafting feats that let them craft what you want to commission and don't have existing projects at the moment? (Yes, these are not necessarily questions that will be relevant to *every* game, but I don't see anything to support the assumption that you seem to make in your analysis that these questions will *never* be relevant, and can thus be ignored.)
- How many have crafting feats?
Almost all of them. Those are the guy that want to make money selling their magical expertise. Almost certainly the will take the item crafting feats that see more requests: weapon and armor, potions, scrolls, rings, wands and wondrous items.If you want a staff or a rod it will require a trip to a large city or mnetropolis but finding a guyt capable to make the other stuff will not be a big problem (note: for ordered stuff I use the city Purchase Limit as the biggest item that can be ordered barring very special circumstances).
- how many don't have existing projects?
depend on what you are trying to get and where you are.
Example: if you are in a large town, purchase limit 10.000 and spell services level 5 and you want to have a set of Bracers of Armor +3 make on specs for you (CL 7) there are probably 1 divine and one arcane caste level 9 in the city and environ, double that for level 7 casters.
Half of them at least have the required feat (they live producing stuff and selling magical services).
A single order for them will not require more than 10 days (purchase limit of the city), average production time is probably around 6 days so it can be reasonably simulated by a 1d10 (or 1d8+2 for the highest level casters) for the length of each order.
They probably will have something like 0-4 orders pending (1d6-2).
So roll a few dices and you have your queue.
If you want a CLW wand in the same city: there are at least another 4 casters with the necessary level. Have that as they need to have the spell on their list. Halve again as not all of them will have the feat.
You have a 5+ and one 7+ caster capable of doing the wand.
Roll for the lower level caster queue (you have already rolled for the higher level), remember to add your pending order to the higher level caster queue and you will see when they can start your project.
The advantage is that you can divide your orders and give them to the guys with the minimum level to fulfil them. If there are enough crafter in a city you will find someone with a short queue.
BTW: as these guys are making a living producing items almost certainly they will take skill focus (spellcraft) so they will not be behind the players on skill levels.
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Also, I don't buy the notion that Adventuring Isn't Work. We might not see it as work because we're not slogging through the mud, climbing the cliff, fighting the dragon, working the magic, or swinging the sword, but if Adventuring wasn't Work, there would be a LOT more people doing it. The game is designed to be a game, and therefore as little like work in execution as possible.
Depend on what you define "work".
Generally what an adventure do will not fall under the definition of "a honest day of work".Adventurers often are the kind of guy that work like crazy for a period, risking life and limb to get big sums of money to spend being grandiose and throwing it around buying what they could not buy when they were young till they are again bereft of cash (think Elton John or several other music stars), not the guys that get a regular job and commute from home to work every day.
You forget that was said as a reply to mdt post, not in a vacuum.
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So,if your crafting feats will never raise your group WBL above the normal level I don't see an advantage in taking the feat against the cost of not taking a different feat.
You can get a item faster as mdt say, or not if you are in the middle of a different project.
In his CLW example, with normal rules, there would have been a 75% chance of finding one in a small town (a location with a population of 200-2.000 persons). In 3 months the players could have visited several small towns and found a wand oc CLW for sale.If you want to get several items spreading the orders around to several crafters, even if there is a wait time, will be probably faster than having the same guy produce all the items.
Regardless of the context of your remark, the efficiencies I identified are still applicable. The *characters* have no idea that the concept of WBL (or even necessarily a formally defined concept of "levels") exists. I would be interested in an explanation of how the examples of efficiency that I mentioned fail to apply in the context of your statement.
Your subsequent remarks about the ability to locate a wand of CLW in a small town are accurate, to be sure, but have no bearing on the question at hand, since the specific example is incomplete for the purposes of determining the feasibility of such an action.
- How many have crafting feats?
Almost all of them. Those are the guy that want to make money selling their magical expertise. Almost certainly the will take the item crafting feats that see more requests: weapon and armor, potions, scrolls, rings, wands and wondrous items.
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- how many don't have existing projects?
depend on what you are trying to get and where you are.
Could you please cite the source in the rules for your conclusions? I'm not aware of rules that delineate the distribution of NPC feats, nor of rules that delineate the motivation for NPC spellcasters ("[they] want to make money selling their magical expertise"), and if such rules exist I would like to know about them!
I am familiar with the rules that indicate the average number of NPC spellcasters of a particular level distributed by population, but I didn't think that those NPCs were required to function in any particular fashion. NPC =/= merchant, as far as I'm aware, regardless of the existence of a standard table for the cost-by-level of casting magical spells.
I'm not saying that I disagree with the methods you present, I'm just asking if they're methods that are directly derived from existing rules, or methods you've developed to fill a void in the existing rules. (Again, this matters for the discussion at hand due to the nature of the thread - if these methods are indicated by RAW, that means that any analysis of the crafting feats should take these methods for NPC crafting into account.)
Depend on what you define "work".
Generally what an adventure do will not fall under the definition of "a honest day of work".
Adventurers often are the kind of guy that work like crazy for a period, risking life and limb to get big sums of money to spend being grandiose and throwing it around buying what they could not buy when they were young till they are again bereft of cash (think Elton John or several other music stars), not the guys that get a regular job and commute from home to work every day.
I will admit that adventurers can develop in this fashion, and I concur that most adventurers are not people who would get a regular job with a commute. For myself, I've never played an adventurer that developed into a rock star (it's not really my cup of tea), nor have the majority of players I've GM'd for (I can't speculate on why they didn't). I'm certainly not trying to say that you're flat-out wrong about the adventuring personality, but my own experiences would seem to suggest that adventurers, as characters, can have personalities at wide variance, and that an analysis of the abstract value of a particular character option should, therefore, not take adventuring personality into account when determining the worth of the option until such time as the option is being considered by an explicit individual adventurer.
(note: for ordered stuff I use the city Purchase Limit as the biggest item that can be ordered barring very special circumstances).
I admit to some degree of confusion over this...
Base Value and Purchase Limit: This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp. There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week. A settlement's purchase limit is the most money a shop in the settlement can spend to purchase any single item from the PCs. If the PCs wish to sell an item worth more than a settlement's purchase limit, they'll either need to settle for a lower price, travel to A larger city, or (with the GM's permission) search for a specific buyer in the city with deeper pockets.
I don't see the connection between "how much money the average shops have on-hand to purchase items from PCs" and "how much money the PCs can spend on crafted magic items" unless it's just a convenient number...
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Regardless of the context of your remark, the efficiencies I identified are still applicable. The *characters* have no idea that the concept of WBL (or even necessarily a formally defined concept of "levels") exists. I would be interested in an explanation of how the examples of efficiency that I mentioned fail to apply in the context of your statement.
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(Again, this matters for the discussion at hand due to the nature of the thread - if these methods are indicated by RAW, that means that any analysis of the crafting feats should take these methods for NPC crafting into account.)
Halt a moment.
If we are speaking only within the rules the concept of WLB is pertinent and if applied as mdt suggest it apply on the efficiency of choosing the feat.If we are speaking of what the character know and how they perceive their universe then it is a bit absurd to do a reverse turn a few row later and pretend to be strictly adherent to RAW and not present the situation as the character will see them.
My example, was clearly labelled as an example, a possible way to determine what kind of queue the players could find.
On the other hand the rules give us a few informations:
In a city of size X (if we play with the normal rules of magic availability)
- there is a 75% chance of fining any special (magical or not) item) for sale up to Xa gp in value;
- that 75% chance can be rerolled every week;
- there is a maximum limit to the most valuable item that the player can sell of Xb gp
- there a people willing to sell spell casting services up to Xc spell level;
- there is a variable number of variable power items on sale.
From there we can use logic to deduce something:
- the items don't appear on the market from thin air;
- if there is a relatively stable supply (the items available 75% of the time), someone is producing them and replacing the used items;
- the guys that sell spellcasting services sell spellcasting services. They aren't necessarily the highest level spell casters in the city in their class, but they are the guys willing to sell the services under normal circumstances, without big problems about who you are and why you want the spell (a bit of a stretch for some clerical spell but that is how officially the rules work).
Then we can go a step further in our deductions:
- there is a good probability that the guy willing to sell his spell casting services will be willing to sell magic items. After all he as no guarantee that he will find a costumer for his services every day and an magic item production activity will be a good way to increase his income;
- it there is a higher level NPC selling his services probably there are a few more lower level guys.
The rules about the highest spellcasting service available can be found here in the Settlement Statistics table.
I don't see the connection between "how much money the average shops have on-hand to purchase items from PCs" and "how much money the PCs can spend on crafted magic items" unless it's just a convenient number...
Just a convenient number. If they want to order something bigger they will have to convince the producer that it is worth his time to work for a single costumer for a long time.
In MY game, when players start making characters around 5th level or higher, I always state that they start off with any 'normal' gear for that character (i.e.: a plate mail, some weapons and a few adventuring gear) free of charge, and they can spend their gold on magic items (but only on items that are lower than X price). Calculating everything to the last copper is just a big waste of time IMO. Like I won't start judging that this character has FOUR daggers instead of FIVE. You want ten daggers? Then take ten. Sheesh.
At higher levels, I even start throwing in free potions and scrolls (as long as it's not abusive), assuming that the characters have gotten these over their many adventures.
Having reasonable players, they mostly choose good stuff but rarely exagerate on the quantity. They assume that their new starting gear is what they would have if they were heading into a dungeon/adventure at that level.
Ultradan
I just don't allow my players to take crafting feats. When they want to craft something, I say 'okay, I'll let you know when it is done'.
What is the in-game justification for not knowing how long it will take to make something?
Halt a moment.
If we are speaking only within the rules the concept of WLB is pertinent and if applied as mdt suggest it apply on the efficiency of choosing the feat.
If we are speaking of what the character know and how they perceive their universe then it is a bit absurd to do a reverse turn a few row later and pretend to be strictly adherent to RAW and not present the situation as the character will see them.
Except that my remarks about the perceptions of the characters implicitly limited the relevance of that context to the remarks immediately surrounding it - I presented the Character Perspective as a context from which the efficiency of self-crafting could be examined. In no way does that limit the legitimacy of my later reasoning on the subject of crafting, WBL, etc.
My example, was clearly labelled as an example, a possible way to determine what kind of queue the players could find.
There are "examples of direct applications of the existing rules" and "examples of methods that individual people use in relevant situations." I was unclear as to the nature of your example, clearly labelled though it was.
On the other hand the rules give us a few informations:
In a city of size X (if we play with the normal rules of magic availability)
- there is a 75% chance of fining any special (magical or not) item) for sale up to Xa gp in value;
- that 75% chance can be rerolled every week;
- there is a maximum limit to the most valuable item that the player can sell of Xb gp
- there a people willing to sell spell casting services up to Xc spell level;
- there is a variable number of variable power items on sale.
I agree with all but the last statement - it would be true that there would be a variable number of variable power items on sale if, for every week, every item was rolled for. Otherwise, the items for sale at any given point in time exist as a cloud of probabilities, much like Schrodinger's Cat, in that until each item is checked for, it exists 3/4ths of the time per week. This can, when observed, produce a system that seems to indicate that a variable number of variable power items are on sale, but it's not quite the same thing. Because it's not quite the same thing, the acquisition of magical items is significantly more flexible, and also much harder to tie to an actual physical system of trade and shopping. This is significant because in the absence of an actual physical process, certain deductions won't hold up, like stability of supply and
From there we can use logic to deduce something:
- the items don't appear on the market from thin air;
- if there is a relatively stable supply (the items available 75% of the time), someone is producing them and replacing the used items;
- the guys that sell spellcasting services sell spellcasting services. They aren't necessarily the highest level spell casters in the city in their class, but they are the guys willing to sell the services under normal circumstances, without big problems about who you are and why you want the spell (a bit of a stretch for some clerical spell but that is how officially the rules work).
I agree that the items on the market don't actually appear out of thin air, but by the rules, they do - no actual source is given. This is part and parcel to the abstraction that makes the determination of the availability of items for sale much much easier to actually use in play.
Nothing in the system for availability indicates a "relatively stable supply" of any one magical item, just a relatively stable supply of Magical Items as a set. I agree that the set of available Magical Items must have a source. I don't see how it's automatic to assume that this source is crafting - perhaps inter-city trade is responsible, perhaps there's more than just the PCs Adventuring Party in town, and other NPC adventurers are selling off their loot (and buying up other magic items). My point is that because multiple possible sources are available, crafting cannot be assumed to be taking place by default with and degree of confidence.As far as spellcasting-for-hire, it's true that the rules provide "the highest-level spell available for purchase from spellcasters in town." Note that the list, as written, guarantees one spell of the indicated level, while providing no guidelines for determining what that spell might be, or who the caster is that provides access to it. Granted, this does indicate a minimum level for the spellcaster, which in turn implies the existence of access to other, lower-level spells, and probably also spells of the same level. It certainly doesn't imply that all spells available at the indicated spell level are available from the caster(s) at the settlement.
Then we can go a step further in our deductions:
- there is a good probability that the guy willing to sell his spell casting services will be willing to sell magic items. After all he as no guarantee that he will find a costumer for his services every day and an magic item production activity will be a good way to increase his income;
- it there is a higher level NPC selling his services probably there are a few more lower level guys.
I concur that the conclusion that there are lower-level casters in a settlement with a caster of an indicated level is not unreasonable. The initial deduction you indicate here, however, is not sufficiently supported. While the spellcasting-for-hire section clearly indicates that a spellcaster willing to sell his casting services exists as indicated, the mere existence of such a spellcaster does not imply that such a spellcaster derives his primary income from such undertakings, nor does it imply that he will have optimized his capabilities for the purposes of making money through his spellcasting services. Certainly it seems to me that such an arrangement is more likely in a larger population center, but even there a high-level spellcaster may not rely on his spellcasting services for income, instead perhaps choosing to charge for his services as an instructor. If he's a Cleric, his casting-for-hire is undoubtedly a source of income for his church/temple/religion, but he may have arrived at his level and station by way of political machinations or even former adventuring status, and while he might consider a crafting feat, he might be more concerned with other things, like maintaining his ability to protect his congregation, or whatever.
All I'm saying is that just because a guy can cast spells and is willing to do so in exchange for monetary compensation doesn't mean that he has to be all about that, and that nothing in the rules indicate that he is or is not. Thus, a spellcaster whose existence is indicated by the Settlement table should not be assumed to be able to craft magical items.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a
base value associated with it (see Table 15–1). There is a 75%
chance that any item of that value or lower can be found
for sale with little effort in that community. In addition,
the community has a number of other items for sale. These
items are randomly determined and are broken down by
category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the
number of items available in each category, refer to Table
15–2 to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring,
weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to
determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the
community’s base value.
This along with the definitions in the GMG for city/town size and the random treasure tables in the CRB/APG/GMG are clearly what is available in each town.
If a player wants someone to make something else for her/him then I base who is available on the city size as well.
This means that finding a Expensive major item may be difficult. I find this to be believable, as even a metropolis caps out for 75% availability at 16,000gp. Trying to find a +5 armor/shield or +5 weapon is supposed to be difficult by RAW.
They just cost too much.
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This is where the crafting feats come in. If a player has a crafting feat he does not have to make the party wait and hope that the item/items they want/need are in the next town.
With the crafting feats you have what you need. Now down time may be an issue, however the rules for crafting on the go exist for a reason.
So I see the crafting feats as a way with some planning to get what you want low/mid levels and at high levels they are pretty much the only way to guarantee that you will get that +5 tome or specific staff or armor you want.
I have arrived at these conclusions after being on all sides of the WBL/crafting debate.
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At one time I was of the opinion that being Monty Hall and giving my players "All the Cool Stuff" was the way to go.
(Please understand this is not what I believe you are espousing, I am just recounting my own experiences.)
This permissive attitude nearly ruined two games.
I could not challenge my players past level 10.
I mean at level 11 they one rounded a Maralith...
This is with 5 players, and directly after they fought a Solar, please don't ask me to explain it is a long story.
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My point is that by letting WBL get out of hand via crafting and letting them buy whatever they wanted they each ended up with around 300,000K at level 11.
It was my fault and was completely unfun for me as they were the unstoppable plot killers due to their numbers being so high in Skills/combat/everything.
Everyone got bored and we started another game.
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In this game I watched WBL/crafting like a hawk. I mean I had a spreadsheet where I kept track of every single copper that the players had ever had and consumables counted against WBL.
This was more fun but honestly I felt like my players did not need this level of oversight as they tend to be self policing as long as I am not shoveling heaps of free stuff at them as fast as I can.
This led to where I am now.
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I watch WBL, and keep track of players current gear. I mostly let consumables go by the wayside and don't track them as such unless they are being carried and used currently.
(I have not had anyone abuse consumables however, as like I said I only game with good friends and they tend to be self policing.)
I update my record of what people have each level and make sure that the party has the appropriate WBL. If they are alittle over np, 5% is ok. If they are under I make sure to get them some gear/gold asap however. That is if the are supposed to have 4,000 gp at level 2 due to having 4 players then any distribution that the players agree too is fine.
This seems to lead to caster being under WBL and Melee being above WBL in the levels 1-7, but that does not bother me as it is player choice.
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I have made a few changes to the crafting system however.
1.) I have removed the requirement to have 3 x enhancement bonus to craft a sword/armor.
2.) I allow a 3PP feat called "Craft Anywhere" from rite publishing's "101 feats", which allows a crafter to get full time crafting while on the move.
That is about it for changes.
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All my players seem happy about this and also I have a witch in my current game who at level 13 has "Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Arms/Armour, Craft Staff, and Craft anywhere." He uses hexes + ability focus for his offense and had the hedge witch archetype. The other players love him.
I guess in TL;DR I agree with MDT and think WBL is a guide you use along with CR to keep a balanced game going.
That is why I don't allow crafting feats to inflate WBL.
I also do not allow the use of crafting feats before a character enters play, period.
Well that is my .02 cents.
Have fun all.
Imo, crafting feats are just part of the package of being a caster.
Yes, you are already tier one. Would you like some more cheese on your macaroni?
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What's a 'usual group' then? :P
Well from an RP perspective, my group is pretty unusual (otherwise I wouldn't have to consider "how is this going to affect the game if player A decides to kill Player B" any time I want to make a houserule).
But it from the posts I've read, your players don't seem heavily invested into learning the rules, and I'd *GUESS* that rather than reading all the rules and learning/memorizing them - or having their own copies of the book in front of them that they are frequently referencing, they count on you to know the rules and just trust you to handle that stuff.
I'm used to having players who get seriously annoyed if things dont work the way theyre explained in the book, unless I have given them alot of notice on the fact beforehand (though I've had a few complain at me even then, but at that point I put the onus on them for not bringing their problems to me before the campaign started, or after the first session, since they had my houserules document).
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Trick question. There is no 'usual' group.
Every group has different dynamics, different expectations. That's why it's so important to get all the players on the same wavelength.
My current group has a couple players who have never played 3.5 before, one that has been a Neverwinter Nights-only player for the past few years, one that grew up on 1/2E and played through 3/3.5E, and a couple that only have limited 3.5 experience. Balancing that is very difficult.
In hindsight, it would have been better to stick with RAW as much as possible until the new players were up to speed, before going crazytown with this campaign. That was my mistake, and I feel bad for the disservice I've done to the new players.
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I have made a few changes to the crafting system however.
1.) I have removed the requirement to have 3 x enhancement bonus to craft a sword/armor.
2.) I allow a 3PP feat called "Craft Anywhere" from rite publishing's "101 feats", which allows a crafter to get full time crafting while on the move.
I see having a specific caster level to make a item and it requiring time as some of the most important factors in balancing the crafting feats so would go the opposite routes from your way to do things.
I will not control the players WBL but will control the time they spend crafting stuff and limit the upper level of what they can build.
Everyone find his happy medium, I think. ;)
@ Doskious Steele, the spellcasting services are the highest spell you cam find in a city at the caster convenience, usually in 24 hours, but it is not a single spell or even a single caster.
If I need Heal, Sympathetic Vibration and Antimagic shell, all 6th level spells from different classes I will be capable of finding someone willing to cast them in the same small city.
I find your logic about the provenance of magic items questionable. "perhaps inter-city trade is responsible, perhaps there's more than just the PCs Adventuring Party in town, and other NPC adventurers are selling off their loot".
The original source of those items will be someone crafting them, independently if they are traded between cities or found in loot.
I find difficult to accept the concept that the guys building them are always in another city or adventurers selling their older gear.
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Trick question. There is no 'usual' group.
Every group has different dynamics, different expectations. That's why it's so important to get all the players on the same wavelength.
My current group has a couple players who have never played 3.5 before, one that has been a Neverwinter Nights-only player for the past few years, one that grew up on 1/2E and played through 3/3.5E, and a couple that only have limited 3.5 experience. Balancing that is very difficult.
True enough.
NWN is quite a bit different from 3.x out of the box (there are some mods that bring it very close to 3.5, but I'm going to assume he likely wasn't using those). It has at least as many differences from 3.0 as as Pathfinder from 3.5.
I just meant that regardless of what level of gaming experience the players I've played with have and what games they have it with, they all seem to expect everything to work RAW, unless I specifically lay out a bunch of rules that override RAW. Any time I've ever attempted to do GM fiat, my right or no, I get alot of irate players either giving me dirty looks or shaking their head, or whining and complaining. Thats with 3 different groups of people. lol.
@ Doskious Steele, the spellcasting services are the highest spell you cam find in a city at the caster convenience, usually in 24 hours, but it is not a single spell or even a single caster.
If I need Heal, Sympathetic Vibration and Antimagic shell, all 6th level spells from different classes I will be capable of finding someone willing to cast them in the same small city.I find your logic about the provenance of magic items questionable. "perhaps inter-city trade is responsible, perhaps there's more than just the PCs Adventuring Party in town, and other NPC adventurers are selling off their loot".
The original source of those items will be someone crafting them, independently if they are traded between cities or found in loot.
I find difficult to accept the concept that the guys building them are always in another city or adventurers selling their older gear.
I suppose that a charitable reading of the rules could imply that multiple spells of the indicated level could be obtained. My point is that the rules, as written, don't *guarantee* it.
I find your earlier reasoning to ignore the possibilities I mentioned entirely, though. I grant that it's not likely that every single magic item for sale in a given city was made available for sale through avenues other than local crafting, but it's as least as unlikely that *all* the magical items in town were crafted locally. This is accentuated by the multiplicity of crafting feats.
All I'm trying to assert is that there are no RAW links between the ability to purchase items of a certain value in a city and the ability to commission magical items in the same city, and no relation between the ability to commission magical items and the ability to buy spells in a city.
I don't disagree that conceptually, the notion that the potential for local NPCs who have crafting feats is greater in larger settlements. Such settlements also do have higher purchase caps and increased spellcasting services, but correlation does not imply causation.