Say I have a 3rd level universal wizard with an intelligence of 16 then I would be able to cast 3x (2+1 bonus) 1st level spells per day and 2x (1+1 bonus) 2nd level spell per day. This wizard also has the silent spell feat.
So could this wizard prepare and cast 2 silent magic missiles per day or would they be limited to 1 because the silent spell feat doesn’t actually change a spells level?
This question arises because of a new rule added in the past 24 hours and I am trying to understand the extent of it.
From the FAQ
Quote:
Can I use bonus spells from a high ability score (page 17) even if my spellcasting class level isn't high enough to give me access to those spell levels?
No. You only get the bonus spells if your class level grants you access to those spell levels. You can't even use them for lower-level spells. See page 16, Abilities and Spellcasters section: "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. "
I understand that the same wizard is no longer able to prepare and cast regular 5 magic missiles per day with this new rule, but could they still cast 4? Or has the rule on page 218 of the CRB also been changed?
Core rule book page 218
Quote:
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show
how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.
These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A
spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell
slot with a lower-level spell.
Again -- not a new rule -- a rule you failed to recognized in the rules due to skipping over it from it being inconvenient to your position.
A metamagic spell uses up a spell slot of a higher level than the spell normally would but for all other purposes remains at the original spell level (unless using heighten spell or a select few other abilities).
Bonus spell slots once obtained can be filled however you wish within the normal rules of preparing spells for your class.
However your continued deliberate obtuseness is kind of cute -- in a Ravingdork kind of way (which is to say it grows on you... the same way mold grows on things).
You can't even use them for lower-level spells if your spellcasting class isn't high enough to give me access to those levels. "You can't even use them for lower-level spells" isn't a blanket statement about bonus spell slots, and no rule has been changed. The FAQ is not errata; it clarifies rules but does not change them.
Quote:
Again -- not a new rule -- a rule you failed to recognized in the rules due to skipping over it from it being inconvenient to your position.
Which rule did I miss? Are you talking about the rule that describes what the requirements are for casting a spell of a certain level? Because I haven’t seen any mention of spell slots in that rule. Lets take a look at it again
Quote:
"In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. "
Seams pretty clear to me, “to be able to cast a spell of a given spell level.” still not seeing the reference to spell slots though. Of course I am not adding to the rule as I see fit and expect others to see it the same way.
Quote:
"You can't even use them for lower-level spells" isn't a blanket statement about bonus spell slots, and no rule has been changed. The FAQ is not errata; it clarifies rules but does not change them.
It’s a complete and closed sentence, there is no note of a qualifier of deviation, thus the question.
Yes, yes lets take single sentences completely out of context of their surrounding paragraph that is specifically and explicitedly about bonus spell slots -- good work there.
Let's once again look at the entirety of the rule instead of the second to last sentence in a vacuum:
Quote: The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details. The entire paragraph isn't about what level spells you can cast (that's actually covered in the class features of classes that can cast spells) it's completely and solely about your bonus spell slots.
Of course if you wish to take bits and pieces out of context you can make it say whatever you want -- like: "I am right"... but that doesn't actually make it so.
Quote:
Let's once again look at the entirety of the rule instead of the second to last sentence in a vacuum:
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details.
The entire paragraph isn't about what level spells you can cast (that's actually covered in the class features of classes that can cast spells) it's completely and solely about your bonus spell slots.
Let’s fallow this logic on step further, first we should start with determine bonuses
Quote:
Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a
modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier
for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to
the die roll when your character tries to do something
related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some
numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called
a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The
table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know
about if your character is a spellcaster.
Note there is no reference to level just ability score and set bonuses, but let’s continue.
Quote:
Abilities and Spellcasters
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type
of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards;
Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma
for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a
high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough
class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See
the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.
Level has been mentioned in reference to what spells you are able to cast. So let’s fallow it further and take a look at one of the classes as is suggested, in this case sorcerer.
Quote:
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from
the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Chapter 10. She can
cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To
learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score
equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a
saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level +
the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain
number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily
spell allotment is given on Table 3–14. In addition, she
receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma
score (see Table 1–3).
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A
sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two
1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level,
she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table
3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer
knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers
on Table 3–15 are fixed.) These new spells can be common
spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they
can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some
understanding of through study.
It should be noted that both tables 3-14 and 3-15 reference class level while table 1-3 (ability modifiers and bonus spells) is noted to be
Quote:
Bonus Spells per Day (by Spell Level)
Note this is not by class level or caster level. Clearly it shows what bonus spells you get per day by spell level only So the clear rule that you are referencing also refers to chart 1-3 which does not reference either class level or caster level only spell level of the bonus slots in question.
Is that thorough enough? Or would you like to see more? It is however far enough off topic that we should get back on topic.
The ruling has been made and rendered when bonus spells are acquired moot as ”You can't even use them for lower-level spells.”
The question now is what can you use them for and do they still qualify for use with metamagic feats?
When you add metamagic to a spell it takes up a higher level slot even though the actual spell level does not change. The only metamagic feat that changes spell level is heighten spell.
That chart that a caster has, which is caster dependent, lets you know which slots you have access to. If you have access to the slot(no dash at that level) then you can use that slot. There are even published NPC's from books that follow this formula.
With that said your 3rd level wizard has 2 2nd level slots. You can plug in two actual 2nd level spells, two 1st level spells that has been metamagic'd, or 1st level spell that has been metamagic'd plus one actual 2nd level spell.
PS:The rules have always worked in the manner in which we are trying to explain them to you. This is not a new thing. You can search the boards and all caster builds using metamagic feats use what you are calling the new rule. Now I will admit that most of us had someone bring us into the game to explain the rules so maybe that is why you have an issue with it if you did not have someone to show you the ropes, but now you have an entire board of people who have been playing for years including those who helped make the game tell you how the rule works. Even if you don't want to listen to me you should at least listen to those who made many of the rules for the game.
Quote:
PS:The rules have always worked in the manner in which we are trying to explain them to you. This is not a new thing.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand how it’s supposed to work what I don’t understand is the conflicting caveats being used. Rather than simple stating when asked
Does a spell caster get all of the bonus spell slots from table 1-3 at first level?
No, table 1-3 on page 17 of the core rule book not only details what bonus spell slots the spell caster receives it is also limited by the maximum castable spell level for the class as defined with in the class description for any given level.
In short, if you don’t get a spell slot from your class (yes, even 0 counts as a slot) for that level then you also don’t get the bonus spell slot either.
Instead explanations like you can’t add a dash to a number (which is done and expected with this chart)
Or we don’t want to give access to fireball to a first level spell caster (which wouldn’t work anyways as the maximum castable spell level is defined within the class description)
And now with you can’t use bonus spell slots for lower level spells (which conflicts with the other rule of
“A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.”)
Add to that the misguided interjections of you can’t get a bonus of something you don’t have (ignoring things like base attack bonus)
Or the claims that it would be over powered without doing a level side by side comparison.
Through in the random leaps of faith claiming that a sentence describing the requirements for casting a spell explains everything from why the sky is blue to how come elephants like peanuts and if you don’t see that then there is something wrong with you.
Honestly it would have been better if when asked why Paizo simply stated “because we said so and we wrote the rules” if nothing else it would be much more understandable and less conflicting.
Quote:
Now I will admit that most of us had someone bring us into the game to explain the rules so maybe that is why you have an issue with it
PS. I have been playing RPG’s from pre ADnD in the days when your class was determined by your race and there were only 4 options, rule’s lawyering for non conflicting clarification also goes back that far. Though honestly I am fairly new to path finder (relatively speaking anyways, there has been some dips into it in the past), though it’s much easier to pick up than 3rd edition was coming from second. There are some differences that bring up questions like not having level reqs on metamagic feats such as the quicken spell feat, makes one wonder, if it can be taken at first level is there a way to use it at first level, thus the question in the first place. Though I am glad that spontaneous spell casters can now use it without increasing casting time as it was when it was originally introduced. Which is why I accepted your first response so easily 2 days ago, the perusing academic discussion has admittedly gotten a bit out of control. And how can one walk away from correcting false claims, hopefully others will work on their lawyering skills, it can be fun when it doesn’t get personal and isn’t taken too seriously, an exercise in logic and all that.
MLHagan wrote: much stuff I understand your frustration. It is not perfectly clear, but it would really cause balance issues if those dashes started to behave like 1's.
The good thing was that I did get to look up some rules, and pick up some things. I did not know that I needed the minimum score to prepare a spell. I only knew about the minimum score to cast a spell. I don't regret the conversation.
I am sure you will find other rules that are not exactly written clearly as you keep playing, and other times you may have to cross reference various parts of the book to find out how something works.
As for "A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell."
The book is assuming you have access to that higher level slot. Yeah I know it does not say that.
I don't understand this comment though-->"Add to that the misguided interjections of you can’t get a bonus of something you don’t have (ignoring things like base attack bonus)"
Could you give an in game example?
concerro wrote:
I understand your frustration. It is not perfectly clear, but it would really cause balance issues if those dashes started to behave like 1's.
it would be nice if some zero's where added to table 1-3, then the rule could of "add the 2 charts together and if there is a dash then you don't get anything" would work. it would also alow for some additional fine tuning of the extream cases like the fighter dargon disciple.
the jump from not being able to continue to level up in a spell casting class if your stat drops below 10 to bing able to continue to level up and learn new 9th level spells with a stat of 10 dosn't set well with me (not that it matters). but sometimes it takes a few sessions to restore ability damage and should a level up happen in the mean time.... there was also the rituals in 3.0 from SnS that would also a wizard to become a sorcerer (though the stats would remain the same)...
IDK, wierd stuff happens, thats just how it works, plan accordingly, lol.
concerro wrote:
I don't understand this comment though-->"Add to that the misguided interjections of you can’t get a bonus of something you don’t have (ignoring things like base attack bonus)"
Could you give an in game example?
Sorry, that corsses over to the first refrence thread that you brought up when i first asked the question. again, thank you for that by the way, probably the point i should have walked away :).
MLHagan wrote: concerro wrote:
I understand your frustration. It is not perfectly clear, but it would really cause balance issues if those dashes started to behave like 1's.
it would be nice if some zero's where added to table 1-3, then the rule could of "add the 2 charts together and if there is a dash then you don't get anything" would work. it would also alow for some additional fine tuning of the extream cases like the fighter dargon disciple.
the jump from not being able to continue to level up in a spell casting class if your stat drops below 10 to bing able to continue to level up and learn new 9th level spells with a stat of 10 dosn't set well with me (not that it matters). but sometimes it takes a few sessions to restore ability damage and should a level up happen in the mean time.... there was also the rituals in 3.0 from SnS that would also a wizard to become a sorcerer (though the stats would remain the same)...
IDK, wierd stuff happens, thats just how it works, plan accordingly, lol.
concerro wrote:
I don't understand this comment though-->"Add to that the misguided interjections of you can’t get a bonus of something you don’t have (ignoring things like base attack bonus)"
Could you give an in game example?
Sorry, that corsses over to the first refrence thread that you brought up when i first asked the question. again, thank you for that by the way, probably the point i should have walked away :). I hope everything is clear now. You got more question just ask. I am normally here, probably more than I should be.
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