Seeking is a ranged only enhancement. You can put it on a dagger since a dagger can be used as a range weapon (it has a range increment), but you only gain it's benefit when you use it that way. In other words, no, it does not automatically ignore the miss chance.
By way of comparison, consider a +1 keen lucerne hammer. Keen applies only to slashing or piercing weapons. Lucerne Hammer can be used as piercing or blunt. If you are fighting a skeleton, you must choose whether to keep your keen threat range, or do blunt damage to bypass it's DR.
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Seeking is a ranged only enhancement. You can put it on a dagger since a dagger can be used as a range weapon (it has a range increment), but you only gain it's benefit when you use it that way. In other words, no, it does not automatically ignore the miss chance.
By way of comparison, consider a +1 keen lucerne hammer. Keen applies only to slashing or piercing weapons. Lucerne Hammer can be used as piercing or blunt. If you are fighting a skeleton, you must choose whether to keep your keen threat range, or do blunt damage to bypass it's DR.
Ah, I get it. Thanks!
Seeking is a ranged only enhancement. You can put it on a dagger since a dagger can be used as a range weapon (it has a range increment), but you only gain it's benefit when you use it that way. In other words, no, it does not automatically ignore the miss chance.
Why? The description of a seeking weapon states that it can only be placed on a ranged weapon, but nowhere does it state it only works with ranged attacks. A general rule that stated that a ranged-weapon-only ability only works with ranged attacks would make sense, but I can't find any such rule.
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Seeking is a ranged only enhancement. You can put it on a dagger since a dagger can be used as a range weapon (it has a range increment), but you only gain it's benefit when you use it that way. In other words, no, it does not automatically ignore the miss chance.Why? The description of a seeking weapon states that it can only be placed on a ranged weapon, but nowhere does it state it only works with ranged attacks. A general rule that stated that a ranged-weapon-only ability only works with ranged attacks would make sense, but I can't find any such rule.
General rule named common sense. If you expect everything to be spelled out perfectly in the rulebook I'd say you will get disappointed.
I don't see how common sense means that a seeking weapon doesn't ignore miss chance in melee.
The seeking ability must be placed on a ranged weapon. That is to say, a weapon must be capable of making ranged attacks in order to accept the seeking ability.
However, "must be placed on a ranged weapon" and "only works for ranged attacks" are two completely different statements. There is nothing that suggests that the first statement implies the second.
I'm not trying to be difficult or rules-lawyery here. If there was a general rule that said a melee-weapon-only ability works only for melee attacks, and a ranged-weapon-only ability works only for ranged attacks, that would totally make sense. But there isn't such a rule, and until such a rule is added, a seeking dagger should ignore miss chances in melee.
I don't see how common sense means that a seeking weapon doesn't ignore miss chance in melee.
The seeking ability must be placed on a ranged weapon. That is to say, a weapon must be capable of making ranged attacks in order to accept the seeking ability.
However, "must be placed on a ranged weapon" and "only works for ranged attacks" are two completely different statements. There is nothing that suggests that the first statement implies the second.
I'm not trying to be difficult or rules-lawyery here. If there was a general rule that said a melee-weapon-only ability works only for melee attacks, and a ranged-weapon-only ability works only for ranged attacks, that would totally make sense. But there isn't such a rule, and until such a rule is added, a seeking dagger should ignore miss chances in melee.
Sure, do what you want, the intent seems clear to me.
I don't see how common sense means that a seeking weapon doesn't ignore miss chance in melee.
The seeking ability must be placed on a ranged weapon. That is to say, a weapon must be capable of making ranged attacks in order to accept the seeking ability.
However, "must be placed on a ranged weapon" and "only works for ranged attacks" are two completely different statements. There is nothing that suggests that the first statement implies the second.
You are right on the second part but wrong on the first part. Being able to make a ranged attack with a weapon does not make it ranged weapon:
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Dagger is effective in melee and thus classify as a melee weapon. Which makes seeking incompatibile property for a dagger. Which also partially solves the initial question.
However, it does not answers similar question: "if I use seeking arrow to stab someone in melee do I benefit from seeking property?"
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I don't see how common sense means that a seeking weapon doesn't ignore miss chance in melee.
The seeking ability must be placed on a ranged weapon. That is to say, a weapon must be capable of making ranged attacks in order to accept the seeking ability.
However, "must be placed on a ranged weapon" and "only works for ranged attacks" are two completely different statements. There is nothing that suggests that the first statement implies the second.
You are right on the second part but wrong on the first part. Being able to make a ranged attack with a weapon does not make it ranged weapon:
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.Dagger is effective in melee and thus classify as a melee weapon. Which makes seeking incompatibile property for a dagger. Which also partially solves the initial question.
However, it does not answers similar question: "if I use seeking arrow to stab someone in melee do I benefit from seeking property?"
It would be the same answer, being that an arrow used in melee is treated as an improvised weapon equivalent to a dagger - ie. if the arrow, like the dagger, is not being used for a ranged attack, the seeking property does not apply.
That was not what Drejk was saying though, he said you can not place it on a dagger because it is not a ranged weapon, but rather a melee weapon that can be thrown.
I am assuming an arrow counts as 'not effective' in melee though, even if you can stab people with it as an improvised weapon
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That was not what Drejk was saying though, he said you can not place it on a dagger because it is not a ranged weapon, but rather a melee weapon that can be thrown.
I am assuming an arrow counts as 'not effective' in melee though, even if you can stab people with it as an improvised weapon
Oh, you're right. Apologies for the miscommunication.
Seeking has been confirmed to be a viable property for a dagger, though - note the gauntlet of infinite blades in the Magic Item Compendium, for instance, listing a +3 dagger of seeking as one of the available options. I am not aware if such a weapon appears in an official adventure path, though - but that section of the rules has not been changed between 3.5 and PF, so it can be assumed to operate in the same fashion.
You can put seeking on a dagger as it is BOTH a melee and a ranged weapon. It can be used as a melee weapon, so it is melee. It also has a ranged increment, so it is a ranged weapon. Here's the relevant paragraph from the magic weapons section:
Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.
HOWEVER, that is talking about enhancement bonuses, not special abilities. When you are using the dagger as a melee weapon, it is a melee weapon only, not a "both" weapon. Thus, it gains no benefit from any ranged only benefits.
This ability can only be placed on a ranged weapon.
It would be like a knife which is enchanted to give +5 to craft(cooking). A chef's knife let's call it. If you use that knife in a melee fight, you don't get the +5 craft(cooking) bonus, because it doesn't apply here. You are doing something else. You are not cooking. You are in a melee fight.
Similarly, if your knife is enchanted to avoid miss chances on a ranged attack (let's call it +1 seeking dagger), and you make a melee attack, you don't get the seeking bonus. You are doing something else. You are not using it as a ranged weapon. You are in a melee fight. It is just as inapplicable as the +5 cooking check.
You can put seeking on a dagger as it is BOTH a melee and a ranged weapon. It can be used as a melee weapon, so it is melee. It also has a ranged increment, so it is a ranged weapon. Here's the relevant paragraph from the magic weapons section:
Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.HOWEVER, that is talking about enhancement bonuses, not special abilities. When you are using the dagger as a melee weapon, it is a melee weapon only, not a "both" weapon. Thus, it gains no benefit from any ranged only benefits.
This ability can only be placed on a ranged weapon.It would be like a knife which is enchanted to give +5 to craft(cooking). A chef's knife let's call it. If you use that knife in a melee fight, you don't get the +5 craft(cooking) bonus, because it doesn't apply here. You are doing something else. You are not cooking. You are in a melee fight.
Similarly, if your knife is enchanted to avoid miss chances on a ranged attack (let's call it +1 seeking dagger), and you make a melee attack, you don't get the seeking bonus. You are doing something else. You are not using it as a ranged weapon. You are in a melee fight. It is just as inapplicable as the +5 cooking check.
good points, I assume that was the intention as well
Similarly, if your knife is enchanted to avoid miss chances on a ranged attack (let's call it +1 seeking dagger), and you make a melee attack, you don't get the seeking bonus.
You're correct that a knife enchanted to avoid miss chances on ranged attacks would not get that benefit in melee. However, a seeking weapon is not enchanted to avoid miss chances on ranged attacks. It is enchanted to avoid miss chances on attacks.
"The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby."
Nothing in that ability description suggests that the enchantment is limited to ranged attacks.
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Similarly, if your knife is enchanted to avoid miss chances on a ranged attack (let's call it +1 seeking dagger), and you make a melee attack, you don't get the seeking bonus.You're correct that a knife enchanted to avoid miss chances on ranged attacks would not get that benefit in melee. However, a seeking weapon is not enchanted to avoid miss chances on ranged attacks. It is enchanted to avoid miss chances on attacks.
"The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby."
Nothing in that ability description suggests that the enchantment is limited to ranged attacks.
This was actually the same question I was asking at the start of the topic, for those exact same reasons. I would posit that allowing it to function for both melee and ranged attacks would render daggers/other melee weapons that can be used in range overpowered in some respect - ie. such an ability is exclusive to them (and such a useful ability, too!) for melee weapons. Granted, it would make daggers more useful vis-a-vis short swords, but at least to me it appears contrary to RAI (the topic was just to confirm such misgivings).
Similarly, if your knife is enchanted to avoid miss chances on a ranged attack (let's call it +1 seeking dagger), and you make a melee attack, you don't get the seeking bonus.You're correct that a knife enchanted to avoid miss chances on ranged attacks would not get that benefit in melee. However, a seeking weapon is not enchanted to avoid miss chances on ranged attacks. It is enchanted to avoid miss chances on attacks.
"The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby."
Nothing in that ability description suggests that the enchantment is limited to ranged attacks.
You are right, let me rephrase for clarity.
It is an enchantment which is limited to ranged weapons. A dagger functions as both a ranged and a melee weapon, but when you use it, you must choose which function you are using (like the +1 keen lucerne hammer, you can either get the keen, or get the blunt damage type, but not both).
Since seeking is an ability which only applies to ranged weapons, it can only apply to the dagger when it is being used as a ranged weapon. Just like the chef's knife can only apply its bonus when the knife is being used to cook.
Similarly, if your knife is enchanted to avoid miss chances when used as a ranged weapon (let's call it +1 seeking dagger), and you make a melee attack, you don't get the seeking bonus. You are doing something else. You are not using it as a ranged weapon. You are in a melee fight. It is just as inapplicable as the +5 cooking check.
When you aren't using it as a ranged weapon, you can't use your ranged weapon bonuses.
It is an enchantment which is limited to ranged weapons. A dagger functions as both a ranged and a melee weapon, but when you use it, you must choose which function you are using.
Sounds fine to me.
Since seeking is an ability which only applies to ranged weapons, it can only apply to the dagger when it is being used as a ranged weapon. Just like the chef's knife can only apply its bonus when the knife is being used to cook.
That part, I will disagree with, though.
A dagger is always a melee weapon and always a ranged weapon. If I make a melee attack with a dagger, it doesn't temporarily stop being a ranged weapon.
As for your theoretical chef's knife, you absolutely would still have the bonus to craft(cooking) while using the knife as a weapon. If, for some reason, my character sees an exotic food while in combat, which can be identified with a craft(cooking) check as a free action, and I want to spend the free action to identify it, I would certainly get the bonus. Similarly, if I was using a craft check to supervise untrained workers (one of the uses of the craft skill), I would still get the bonus, even though I wasn't cooking. Now, if the description of the chef's knife specifically said that it granted a +5 bonus to craft(cooking) when using it to cook, then the bonus would not apply in the 2 situations I described. However, there is no reason to make up restrictions for a magic item that don't appear in the item description or the general magic item rules.
If I throw a +1 disruption club at an undead creature and hit, does it need to make a will save to resist destruction?
It is an enchantment which is limited to ranged weapons. A dagger functions as both a ranged and a melee weapon, but when you use it, you must choose which function you are using.Sounds fine to me.
Since seeking is an ability which only applies to ranged weapons, it can only apply to the dagger when it is being used as a ranged weapon. Just like the chef's knife can only apply its bonus when the knife is being used to cook.That part, I will disagree with, though.
A dagger is always a melee weapon and always a ranged weapon. If I make a melee attack with a dagger, it doesn't temporarily stop being a ranged weapon.
But you are not using it as a ranged weapon, so you don't get the bonuses that a ranged weapon applies. They are inapplicable. It makes no sense that you should be able to makes a dagger seeking for melee attacks but not a longsword just because the dagger has a range increment.
For that matter, any melee weapon can be used as a ranged weapon, just with the improvised weapon penalties. So that means that any melee weapon should be eligible for this, which means that the restriction that it only apply to ranged weapons is meaningless since EVERYTHING is a ranged weapon.
As for your theoretical chef's knife, you absolutely would still have the bonus to craft(cooking) while using the knife as a weapon. If, for some reason, my character sees an exotic food while in combat, which can be identified with a craft(cooking) check as a free action, and I want to spend the free action to identify it, I would certainly get the bonus. Similarly, if I was using a craft check to supervise untrained workers (one of the uses of the craft skill), I would still get the bonus, even though I wasn't cooking. Now, if the description of the chef's knife specifically said that it granted a +5 bonus to craft(cooking) when using it to cook, then the bonus would not apply in the 2 situations I described. However, there is no reason to make up restrictions for a magic item that don't appear in the item description or the general magic item rules.
But the +5 to craft(cooking) doesn't help you in your melee attack. That was my point. The ranged weapon bonus is just as inapplicable here as a bonus to craft(cooking).
If I throw a +1 disruption club at an undead creature and hit, does it need to make a will save to resist destruction?
No. Because that club has stopped being used as a melee weapon, so it no longer has the benefit of its disruption. If it did, then what would stop someone from putting disruption on a stack of blunt-tipped darts (they can be used as improvised melee weapons!) and chucking them at undead?
EDIT: And I still think the +1 keen lucerne hammer is the most salient example here, and you still haven't responded to it.
But you are not using it as a ranged weapon, so you don't get the bonuses that a ranged weapon applies. They are inapplicable. It makes no sense that you should be able to makes a dagger seeking for melee attacks but not a longsword just because the dagger has a range increment.
The reason is simply: it's magic. For some reason, whatever spellcaster invented the seeking ability designed it so that it could only be placed on ranged weapons. He was probably trying to reduce the cost of the weapon ability by limiting what weapons it could be placed on.
For that matter, any melee weapon can be used as a ranged weapon, just with the improvised weapon penalties. So that means that any melee weapon should be eligible for this, which means that the restriction that it only apply to ranged weapons is meaningless since EVERYTHING is a ranged weapon.
As you pointed out earlier in this thread, anything that has a range increment is a ranged weapon. Most melee weapons do not have a range increment, and are therefore not ranged weapons.
But the +5 to craft(cooking) doesn't help you in your melee attack. That was my point. The ranged weapon bonus is just as inapplicable here as a bonus to craft(cooking).
I never said the +5 to craft(cooking) would apply to attacks. Similarly, a ranged attack bonus would not apply to melee attacks. However, a ranged WEAPON bonus would apply to melee attacks, if such an attack is made with a melee+ranged weapon, such as a dagger.
No. Because that club has stopped being used as a melee weapon, so it no longer has the benefit of its disruption. If it did, then what would stop someone from putting disruption on a stack of blunt-tipped darts (they can be used as improvised melee weapons!) and chucking them at undead?
How a weapon can be used as an improvised weapon does not define the weapon's type. When you make a melee attack with a dart, you are making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, and therefore take a penalty.
EDIT: And I still think the +1 keen lucerne hammer is the most salient example here, and you still haven't responded to it.
I didn't respond to that example because it works the same way. Whoever created the first keen weapon designed the weapon ability so it could only be placed on slashing or piercing weapons. If a piercing-or-bludgeoning weapon has the keen ability, the bludgeoning part of the weapon gets the benefit of the keen ability.
Basically, I'm arguing that if a weapon has multiple types (melee or ranged, bludgeoning or piercing, whatever), it is always all of those types, regardless of what types it is being used as at this very moment. You're arguing that only a weapon's currently in-use types matter.
As far as I can tell, the rules do not state that a weapon loses its types when used to make a specific kind of attack, nor do the rules state that a weapon keeps its types when used to make a specific kind of attack. We're both filling in an unspecified part of the rules with our own views of how stuff works.
Don't feel like dealing with all the quote tags this time.
For the darts (or any other "improvised" weapon used wrong): For someone with throw anything, any melee weapon becomes a ranged weapon. So if a wizard with CMA&A and throw anything makes a magic weapon, that weapon, regardless of anything else, is a ranged weapon for him. So why can't he put seeking on his greataxe? And then why can't someone else pick up that greataxe and use the seeking?
Because that clearly goes against the logic of the system as it is designed.
Same applies the other way with a catch off-guard wizard making blunted darts with disruption.
Here is something from the transformative weapon description, which lets you change your weapon into any other similarly sized weapon:
The weapon retains all of its abilities, including enhancement bonuses and weapon properties, except those prohibited by its current shape. For example, a keen transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen property when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon.
If you are using a keen weapon as a bludgeoning weapon, you lose the keen part of it.
Similarly, if you are attacking with the hammer end of your keen lucerne hammer instead of the hook, you lose the keen section of it.
But we are probably at agree to disagree time.
Dagger is a simple melee weapon that can thrown with a 10' range increment.
Dart is a simple ranged weapon.
Vicious is a melee weapon special ability.
Seeking is a ranged weapon special ability.
Flaming is a special ability that doesn't care if melee or ranged.
Actually, I think I'm inclined to agree with you at this point. Though I have no problem with arguing that a ranged weapon magic ability works when using the weapon for a melee attack, I'm not willing to argue that for non-magic stuff. Feats like Point-Blank Shot work with ranged weapons, not ranged attacks, and it would be silly to apply PBS for a melee attack made with a dagger.
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Actually, I think I'm inclined to agree with you at this point. Though I have no problem with arguing that a ranged weapon magic ability works when using the weapon for a melee attack, I'm not willing to argue that for non-magic stuff. Feats like Point-Blank Shot work with ranged weapons, not ranged attacks, and it would be silly to apply PBS for a melee attack made with a dagger.
PBS wouldn't apply to melee attacks with a dagger, yes, but they would apply to ranged attacks with it. Look at the Invisible Blade prestige class in Complete Warrior - it requires Far Shot and Point Blank Shot and is a class exclusively focused on the use of daggers. Using Rapid Shot with a thrown dagger (ie. throw a dagger as part of the additional attack granted by the feat and take a -2 penalty on all subsequent attacks, be they melee or ranged) is also apparently a valid combination; I believe James Jacobs weighed in on this somewhere, but I don't have a link, sorry.