Hey, internet, I posted some questions about a game I was GMing here and got helpful results so I thought I'd try that again. There are two requests for advice here so if you think i should make two threads let me know and I'll edit this.
1) I'm beginning to get concerned with the quality of my PCs' teamwork. Since they are APL8 I'm designing encounters that require a certain level of coordination, otherwise it's just high level hack n slash. This party IS relatively new to Pathfinder, and tabletop RPGs in general. One player has been in several campaigns and games with me for the last five years, but of the other three two have only played a few times, and for the fourth this is his first game (I designed a TWF Fighter for him that is quite skilled with Handaxes, so he's doing alright). Last time I came to this forum it was about an encounter with limited light sources. I thought I'd designed that encounter well (it was short and sweet, there were places to hide and regain light, the enemies were weak, they could exploit their sources of light in several ways etc.), but it was a HUGE challenge for them. I blame myself as the GM for that debacle, BUT from my perspective what did them in was a lack of coordination. I put them in a survival-type situation and they all acted on their own; the casters of Light would often leave certain players in complete darkness, the melee fighters would give each other orders to do opposite things ("back up so we can flank them!" "No! Everyone pile into that room"), and at one point the Witch cast Black Tentacles down a narrow hallway, grappling the Cleric. In the next fight they worked together much better and took down a buffed Oni quite skillfully. Maybe teamwork is coming to them naturally, but I'm wondering if there are any tricks to teaching the party to work together, or tricking them into figuring out how to coordinate combat. In case it helps the party consists of a Debuff/Buff oriented Witch, a "healb$$~&" (her words) Cleric of Erastil, a TWF Fighter who uses Step up and Strike, and a THW-Style Ranger with the Skirmisher alternate features.
2) I'm a huge fan of very, very powerful enemies that you need to use crazy tactics to defeat, or find a way to evade. One of my old DMs for 3.5 would throw these at us every few games and it was very satisfying to have that "Oh s&$& we're going to DIE down here" moment and then escape unharmed, or pull out a secret weapon. I know these are hard to run because you often risk killing one or more characters in the process, but I'd like to try some. This past game I threw a (Young) Frost Worm at them. The Worm had limited movement so they could escape easily, but they chose to fight it. It had one-shotted the Cleric on an AOO and the death throw would have killed her had it not been for some lucky terrain (do to new positioning it didn't have line of sight when it died, so I rolled concealment to see if the terrain would block the ice).
At the end of next session I'm planning on making them fight a Noble Efreeti who is CR11 (I will buff it, and also change its existing stats). They will have the ability to run past the Efreeti to escape, but it will be risky. If they fight the Efreeti they are up for a tough, tough fight, but they CAN win, or weaken the Efreeti enough that escape is easier. If anyone has any advice on how to run this encounter it would be much appreciated. Thanks!
1.) Face them with their "evil goatee versions" with NPC gear, perhaps a level or two lower and tactical teamwork.
2.) Noble Efreeti - maybe play up the arrogance and have it burn its full round action monologing in whatever way you deem fit to connect to the next part of the campaign?
1.) Face them with their "evil goatee versions" with NPC gear, perhaps a level or two lower and tactical teamwork.
2.) Noble Efreeti - maybe play up the arrogance and have it burn its full round action monologing in whatever way you deem fit to connect to the next part of the campaign?
I really like your first suggestion. It both accomplishes what I'd like to do and is a challenge for me to pull off without looking silly.
Your second suggestion is good, and I think I'll use it, but I worry it comes a little close to just nerfing. As the GM I can make any fight easier by having my enemies just NOT attack, or make stupid decisions. My goal isn't to make the fight easier, its to prepare the players for how hard it will be, and get them to understand the risks of fighting, and the risks of running.
To elaborate: The Efreeti wants an artifact in possession of ONE of the characters. He doesn't know which one has it, and unless they accidently reveal that, he is arrogant enough to assume no one can escape his carefully chosen battlefield. The players can have one or more characters engage him and send the rest running for the door, but fewer than four characters up against him don't have a good chance of survival. If the players stay and fight, they take a greater risk, but can come out with a better reward (no casualties, more xp, some sweet loots, bragging rights). If they are clever they might combine these tactics. A good strat I can envision is placing debuffing spells on the Efreeti and doing some damage, then having two characters run for the door, while the other two pull all their tricks to try and bide time, and stop/slow him. Then its a mad dash to the door, with dastardly consequences for failure.
Take them through a series of encounters designed to prove a point.
1) Flying is awesome when no one else has it.
2) Casters + distance = trouble (10 3rd level wizards)
3) A creature with a horrible full attack should not be allowed to use it.
4) Tumbling away is your friend.
5) Earth Glide/incorporeality is MEAN in a maze.
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Come to think of it, one high-level wizard could do ALL of these things, one at a time. Have him show up, and challenge the PCs with his new tactic, designed to defeat them. Also designed perfectly to defend against their last tactic.
Your second suggestion is good, and I think I'll use it, but I worry it comes a little close to just nerfing. As the GM I can make any fight easier by having my enemies just NOT attack, or make stupid decisions. My goal isn't to make the fight easier, its to prepare the players for how hard it will be, and get them to understand the risks of fighting, and the risks of running.
To elaborate: The Efreeti wants an artifact in possession of ONE of the characters. He doesn't know which one has it, and unless they accidently reveal that, he is arrogant enough to assume no one can escape his carefully chosen battlefield. The players can have one or more characters engage him and send the rest running for the door, but fewer than four characters up against him don't have a good chance of survival. If the players stay and fight, they take a greater risk, but can come out with a better reward (no casualties, more xp, some sweet loots, bragging rights). If they are clever they might combine these tactics. A good strat I can envision is placing debuffing spells on the Efreeti and doing some damage, then having two characters run for the door, while the other two pull all their tricks to try and bide time, and stop/slow him. Then its a mad dash to the door, with dastardly consequences for failure.
Well, if the Noble Efreet is arrogant enough to monologue, the rest depends on how nasty he is. A wall of fire doesn't allow a save after all, and being able to layer them around the PCs gets nasty PDQ. He can use these to set up a "rotisserie of death" about himself with several of them layered radiating heat inwards...
Team work come time and experience. May suggest that you run meat grinder type chain fight. Like dungeon with one leads to the next and a lot of fights that pushes them to there limit of ability, HP, spell, daily stuff, ect.
I have my party in a serious megadungeon where the occasional face CR +3 or +4 fights. Teamwork has been something that we've worked on quite transparently.
As a teacher, my advice is
1. Motivation: Show the players WHY they need to work together better. Handing them their A$$ and then, as they are hanging on barbed hooks in the demon's pantry (pre awesome escape) talk about how things could have been different. Let them see treasure and magic items they might possess if they have better teamwork.
2. Suggestions. First, figure out what each player wants out of the game, and find ways to help them do what they want, yet still be team players.
3. Practice. Have players practice teamwork on some easy encounters. Debrief them afterwords.
It's what I do when I teach science.
Transparent teaching helps a lot. Take off the GM hat for a few minutes after a fight, and talk about strategy and tactics.
Remember, in the end, the game is a contract between people to have fun. If your players HATE teamwork and enjoy screwing each other up, maybe that's something you have to run with. Most groups want to be successful, and so will take training if it's done reasonably.
What you do is important, how you do it is also important. No one likes to hear "You're doing that wrong!" Better is "You can increase your xp takes and treasure takes if you tried . . . "
Good luck!