Hello everyone! Hopefully you're all doing well.
So! I'm going to be playing in a Pathfinder campaign more or less using the Core, Ultimate Magic, and APG (And I guess the Bestiary 1 and 2).
I am being very indecisive and jumping all over the place with my ideas. I keep going between the idea of a Qinggong basic monk, a Zen Archer, and a Monk of the Sacred Mountain (or a Qinggong of the Sacred Mountain, since apparently archetypes can stack if similar abilities aren't replaced?).
I kind of had a cool idea of making a monk that is themed around dragons (Or something similar), by being a qinggong and taking abilities that might be similar to what a dragon can do. An example would be taking the barkskin ability and saying it makes my skin scaly, or taking the ki shout and saying it's like a dragon's roar. Stuff like that.
However, I'm having a really hard time planning my ability scores, race, and what class I definitely want to go with, what with me being indecisive... I just kind of wanted to hear peoples thoughts on those 3 archetypes/styles, and see if any suggestions can be borrowed from you wonderful people :)
And for people's clarification: We are using 20-point buy, can only really use the core book, the bestiary books, the APG, and Ultimate Magic. I can use races from the bestiary like the Undine and whatnot as well, I'm not against that idea. Should be all the info I can give (Except noting that the rest of the party seem to be: a rogue, a barbarian, a druid, and a ranger).
Thank you all for your time and attention!
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Quinggong and Sacred Mountain can't be taken together, since their powers (or more specifically the powers that they replace) overlap.
Monks are a not particularly strong class choice in Pathfinder -- but that shouldn't keep you from playing one, if you have your heart set on a monk. Strength-built monks are a much better option than a balanced approach or a DEX-based approach.
Here's my suggested build for a trip-focused monk that will be able to hold their own in melee damage, while still being pretty flexible:
Human 10th level tripping-focused monk
Feats:
1) Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus)
1) Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus)
1) Combat Expertise (1st level)
1) Toughness
1) Combat Reflexes (Monk)
2) Dodge (Monk)
3) Improved Trip
5) Ki Throw
6) Improved Grapple (Monk)
7) Improved Ki Throw
9) Greater Trip
10) Medusa's Wrath (Monk)
Starting Stats (20 pt buy):
S: 16 (18) D: 12 Con:12 I:13 W:14 C:8
Al stat bumps to STR -- you need to keep up your attack/damage and your CMB. The build really comes together at level 9 with Greater Trip, but it should be fun to play up to that level, too - just make sure you don't position yourself where you are trying to stand toe-to-toe with an enemy that can give you a full round of attacks. Trip should help with that -- and help a lot.
The Qinggong and Sacred Mountain can't be used in tandem? Even if the qinggong doesn't HAVE to replace those abilities? Like, I know the sacred mountain replaces slow fall, so would that actually ban me from taking it or would it just remove that from the list of abilities I could replace with the qinggong?
As an example, if I were a qinggong sacred mountain, at level 4 couldn't I technically say "okay I'm not replacing that, and therefore the archetypes don't overlap" or does that not work?".
I guess I wanted to get in the face of enemies, but those bow abilities do look cool. One part of the dragon theme was that I'd use barkskin and the +1 natural armor from mountain to almost never get hit. On that note, I dunno if I'd ever be willing to let my AC be that low. Getting hit at least once a turn would be harsh
The Qinggong and Sacred Mountain can't be used in tandem? Even if the qinggong doesn't HAVE to replace those abilities? Like, I know the sacred mountain replaces slow fall, so would that actually ban me from taking it or would it just remove that from the list of abilities I could replace with the qinggong?
As an example, if I were a qinggong sacred mountain, at level 4 couldn't I technically say "okay I'm not replacing that, and therefore the archetypes don't overlap" or does that not work?".
I guess I wanted to get in the face of enemies, but those bow abilities do look cool. One part of the dragon theme was that I'd use barkskin and the +1 natural armor from mountain to almost never get hit. On that note, I dunno if I'd ever be willing to let my AC be that low. Getting hit at least once a turn would be harsh
I think they stack just fine. Of course, you can't take a ki power in place of a power that the Monk of the Sacred Mountain is replacing with something else, which, in this particular case, means that it'd be fairly late before you can get anything from Qinggong (level 7 at the earliest if I remember right). But I think it's a valid combination.
Eh, it seems my DM won't allow it anyway. He thinks it'll be overpowered no matter what I say to him, so I guess that idea is right out... weh.
Eh, it seems my DM won't allow it anyway. He thinks it'll be overpowered no matter what I say to him, so I guess that idea is right out... weh.
That's weird. We've been all over these boards trying to prove that Monks are even worth the choice at all, much less OP.
I'm playing a monk, alongside a fighter, and my biggest advantages are speed and saves. The fighter deals way more damage than I do, has greater reach, higher AC, and attack bonus. I, on the other hand, have some immunities, better saves, am very fast, and sometimes immune to a couple of maneuvers.
It can be quite fun playing a monk, you should point your GM to a couple threads on these and other boards to show how non-OP even multiple archetypes on a Monk really is.
Zen archer would be my choice you do fairly decent damage at range keeping you out of direct combat and if you end up in close range no worries.
Zen archer would be my choice you do fairly decent damage at range keeping you out of direct combat and if you end up in close range no worries.
Hmm, yeah, might be worth a shot. Everyone seems to recommend human. Thoughts?
@Swivl: Most people think they're underpowered huh? I guess they are kind of hard to really get a higher DPS on, without using a crapload of feats, and even then they're kind of debatable.
Do you know what theme the campaign will take? Will it be a pure hack'n'slash through a dungeon filled with strange monsters? A lot of exploration in foreign environment? A humanoid-heavy political campaign? A "balanced" approach with a little of each?
That would affect quite a bit. If it's a humanoid-heavy campaign you're going to have a far easier time than if there's a lot of dragons around. With humanoids, get trip, and take advantage of the fact that you're armed even when you seem unarmed.
Also, at all times remember that you are NOT to be standing in melee, trading punches for a long time. You won't have the hit points or the damage for that to be useful. Your main advantage is mobility and adaptability; analyze the situation and choose the correct approach. You're not a fighter. You're closer to a rogue but not that either.
EDIT: I think humans, half-orcs and dwarves make the best monks. Humans and half-orcs have a floating bonus that can go to strength, half-orcs trade the feat for darkvision. Dwarves have that and +2 con/wis which are both secondary stats for the monk, but the penalty is to the dump stat Charisma.
Depends on if you want to focus on sniping or legolas archery.
Sniping elf or halfling legolas human
This DM's style is kind of all over the place. We have had a few where we just deal with humanoids, or things similar to. However, we have also found a few dragons on occasion. I dunno what to expect, really. We are starting in a mountaintop village however.
The obvious route to making a more 'dragon' themed monk is to go for Dragon Disciple. A level of bard or sorcerer aren't entirely wasted, though being Charisma based hurts a lot for a MAD class like a monk, given that Charisma is usually the dump stat of choice.
Still, depending on your stat system and access to magic items, it might be worth it. You gain scales, claws, natural armor increases, and eventually can TURN INTO A FRIGGIN DRAGON, which is actually kind of a frightening concept. A dragon monk? Flurry of ass kicking. The rule of cool is definitely there.
Heheh, yeah, generally charisma is my one true dump stat. Rarely do I not have it as my dump stat. On occasion, I'll have Wisdom as my dump stat (generally when playing as a rogue). However, being a monk, that is very undesirable.
This DM's style is kind of all over the place. We have had a few where we just deal with humanoids, or things similar to. However, we have also found a few dragons on occasion. I dunno what to expect, really. We are starting in a mountaintop village however.
Well, then the monk's agility might be useful from the get go, at least! :D
Human might be a good idea after all. The extra skill point will suit a monk that dumps Int well, since he's got many good class skills but might not have enough skill points.
EDIT: You might want to talk to your DM about switching your Wis-focus to a Cha-focus, basing your abilities on Cha instead of wis. Cha is generally seen as a far worse stat apart from class abilities; it isn't tied to a save like wis and the skills it affects are individually less important than the ones wis affect (mainly perception).
A single level of sorcerer or bard later, and you can go for Dragon Disciple.
This is my 5th level Monk of the Sacred Mountain. Kinda threw it together at work, so the math might be off here and there. I don't know. :) He's a qinggong monk, but hasn't had a chance to replace any powers yet, so it doesn't really matter at this point. 25 point build. Mostly going for the tricksy CMB build in this instance... giving the Ki Throw feat tree some serious thought (it'd eventually let him use greater bull rush while standing still to take advantage of bastion stance).
The choice of race was just for flavour. I hadn't realized just how perfect the ability modifiers are for a monk.
Male Oread qinggong monk of the sacred mountain 5
LN Medium outsider (native)
Init +2 Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
--Defense--------------------------------
AC 18, touch 17 flat-footed 15 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 natural, +1 dodge, +1 class)
hp 48 (5 HD; 5d8+15+5)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +7
Resist acid 5
Immune disease
Defensive Abilities bastion stance, iron limb defense
--Offense--------------------------------
Spd 40ft.
Melee unarmed strike +7 (1d8+4/x2)
or flurry of blows +7/+7 (1d8+4/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, stunning fist, power attack (-1 hit/+2 dmg), ki pool: 5
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 5th; concentration +4)
1/day — magic stone
--Statistics-----------------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 17, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +9 (+11 bull rush, grapple); CMD 26 (28 vs bull rush, grapple)
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Defensive Combat Training, Dodge, Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Skills Acrobatics +10(5), Climb +8(1), Escape Artist +6(1), Perception +11(5), Ride +6(1), Sense Motive +7(1), Stealth +10(5), Swim +8(1)
Languages Common, Terran
Gear adventurering gear
SA elemental affinity, unarmed strike, fast movement, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (5 pts), purity of body
That seems like a pretty solid build there. Kinda gives me ideas.
I am pretty certain by DM is being a jerk and saying nobody is allowed to take two archetypes, even though my other friend said he found it in the rulebooks that you can do so.
Do any of those feats require combat reflexes at all? If so, I'd need Int 13, though I dunno if Improved Bull Rush or Improved Grapple need it. I may just be thinking of Improved Trip.
Edit: I was contemplating being an Undine Zen Archer, but wasn't sure if the loss to strength would kinda cripple me or not (Was intending on using a composite longbow at some point... ). Thoughts?
That seems like a pretty solid build there. Kinda gives me ideas.
I am pretty certain by DM is being a jerk and saying nobody is allowed to take two archetypes, even though my other friend said he found it in the rulebooks that you can do so.
Do any of those feats require combat reflexes at all? If so, I'd need Int 13, though I dunno if Improved Bull Rush or Improved Grapple need it. I may just be thinking of Improved Trip.
Edit: I was contemplating being an Undine Zen Archer, but wasn't sure if the loss to strength would kinda cripple me or not (Was intending on using a composite longbow at some point... ). Thoughts?
The only feat that would require combat expertise and Int 13 is Improved Trip. Which you get access to as a bonus feat at level 6 (and don't have to meet the pre-reqs for). For most monks, this means that A) you have to pick improved trip at level 6 or not at all, and B) you will never get greater trip. Whether trip is worth it is something you have to decide for yourself, before level 6. :)
The Udine is a pretty cool, and defensive, race for a monk. It definitely has some interesting flavour. Though, Zen Archer or not, the strength penalty is going to hurt. You could compensate for it (higher starting strength since you get a boost to both dex and wis), but it's a setback.
If you're going for a Zen Archer, the racial Dex bonus for Undine is less useful after level 3, since you'll be using your Wisdom for attacks anyways. Dwarves make pretty solid monks of any stripe, and the fast movement helps offset the racial speed penalty.
A dwarven monk would be quite interesting, especially since we're in the mountains. :P Damn I hate being indecisive...
I guess I'm more or less going between Zen Archer and Sacred Mountain... not sure if I need to be a qinggong by itself. Actually, that's not true... but the sacred mountain/qinggong would be a defensive powerhouse along with the barkskin ability.
I'm personally a fan of my Dwarf Drunken Master/Monk of the Sacred Mountain. You can have both archetypes, and they just scream dwarven flavor.
Imagine being a dumb enemy, like an orc or an ogre. You come across an unarmored dwarf, standing on the edge of a cliff, drinking heavily. You think this can be an easy target, so you charge him, intending to knock him off the cliff. He just stands there, and it feels like you just slammed into stone, not a dwarf. He looks at you, takes another drink, then proceeds to cave in your skull with his bare hands.
Not to mention all the fun you could have in bar fights. I wish there was some way to combine Drunken Master with Monk of the Empty Hand...
The Dwarven Stability goes quite well with Bastion Stance, and the racial save bonuses combined with high monk saves mean you'll be hard to put down with any kind of spell.
That sounds like an interesting combo. What do dwarves lose? Charisma?
Yep. +2 Con, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. They also get Darkvision, Stonecunning, a +4 Dodge bonus to AC against giants, a +1 to hit Orcs, a +4 to CMD to resist bull rushes and trips, and a +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and spells.
Here's my current monk build (level 7) I used pretty much the same build rules/limitations that you have.
None of this counts any magic items.
Brak Stoneskin, Dwarf Monk 7
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 16
Wis 16
Int 9
Cha 5
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge, Ironguts, Ironhide, Toughness, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Steel Soul.
Traits: Iron Liver, Grounded
Skills: Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive
HP: 79, AC 18 (10 +2 Dex +3 Wis +1 Monk +1 Dodge +1 NA) +2 when he doesn't move.
Saves: Fort 8/Reflex 8/Will 8, extra +4 vs spells, +8 vs poisons and drugs, +12 vs alcohol. (He's REALLY hard to get drunk.)
I eventually intend to pick up Fast Drinker and Ki Throw. So an enemy charges me, and I just trip them and throw them away, without having to move.
Is that a drunken master/sacred mountain? Or just drunken master?
Well, I tried fiddling with ability scores.
16 Str
14 Dex
12 Con
13 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha
This is as an Oread Monk. Not sure if it should be a Zen Archer, Qinggong, or Sacred Mountain.
Sorry, the build above is both Drunken Master and Sacred Mountain.
An Oread is a decent choice from raw stats, but Magic Stone is largely useless and their Elemental Affinity does nothing at all for you, but still takes up a chunk of their 'racial ability budget'.
I'd much rather have Stability, Defensive Training, Stonecunning, +2 to saves, and the ability to take cool racial feats over +2 Strength, a crappy SLA, and 5 acid resistance, but that's just me.
If you were to go with Oread anyways, I'd change the stats around. There's not much of a point to going with a 13 Intelligence, since you can take Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as monk bonus feats without needing to meet the Prereqs. Monks are the single most MAD class, you don't want to spread yourself out any further than you have to.
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 16
Cha 6
That would be a more mechanically solid stat spread for an Oread.
I'd suggest monk/sorceror/dragon disciple.
The right sorceror spells can make up for a lot, and if you concentrate on spells that affect you and your allies, you don't need the world's highest CHA. You can get by with a 13 or so.
It would be easy to rename spells as scales of the dragon (mage armor) or sight of the dragon (see invisibility).
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I'm personally a fan of my Dwarf Drunken Master/Monk of the Sacred Mountain. You can have both archetypes, and they just scream dwarven flavor.
Imagine being a dumb enemy, like an orc or an ogre. You come across an unarmored dwarf, standing on the edge of a cliff, drinking heavily. You think this can be an easy target, so you charge him, intending to knock him off the cliff. He just stands there, and it feels like you just slammed into stone, not a dwarf. He looks at you, takes another drink, then proceeds to cave in your skull with his bare hands.
Not to mention all the fun you could have in bar fights. I wish there was some way to combine Drunken Master with Monk of the Empty Hand...
The Dwarven Stability goes quite well with Bastion Stance, and the racial save bonuses combined with high monk saves mean you'll be hard to put down with any kind of spell.
+1
I'm still laughing at the mental picture. It is a pity, as you said, that the Drunken Master and Empty Hand archetypes cannot be combined. First finish the pint of dwarven stout, then beat the orc vigorously about the head and shoulders with the empty stein.Edit: I am playing a dwarf Zen Archer in a campaign, and the character is a lot of fun to play...especially when the opposing army sends soldiers to engage the little guy with the bow in melee. My shooting arrows without provoking AoO was an unpleasant surprise for them. It hasn't happened yet, but I can also take AoO with unarmed strike.
monks are frickin rad nuff said, be careful about mentioning the dreaded monk on these boards people will jump down your throat for playing a "class that sucks" which it doesn't by the way so tread carefully upon these waters young padawan for the dark sides lurks every where.
i think monks are pretty strong
BUT
if they have a witch chum then mage armour, ward hex etc turn you into a major player
i do think, more than many classes, they benefit greatly from buffs
I'd suggest monk/sorceror/dragon disciple.
The right sorceror spells can make up for a lot, and if you concentrate on spells that affect you and your allies, you don't need the world's highest CHA. You can get by with a 13 or so.
It would be easy to rename spells as scales of the dragon (mage armor) or sight of the dragon (see invisibility).
If you're planning on a sorcerer dip, consider the Empyreal Bloodline.
A monk/sorcerer that can still dump CHA? Please and thank you!
EDIT: I just realized that Dragon Disciple requires Draconic bloodline... but there's nothing saying you couldn't use the Crossblooded archetype to be a Draconic/Celestial(Empyreal) bloodline. You'd lose out on one spell of each level, and a -2 on will saves. For a Monk/Sorc/DD, I think it'd be worth it.
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13 INT is only important if you want to focus on tripping: you need 13 INT for Greater Trip, which is really where tripping becomes effective (and crazy fun!).
Dwarves make great monks and bring a lot of role playing opportunities to the table. With a 20 point buy and a Dwarf you can focus on STR and still end up with decent CON/WIS (keeping the 13 INT for Greater Trip is important to me for a monk):
17 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
13 INT
14 WIS
6 CHA
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I'd suggest monk/sorceror/dragon disciple.
The right sorceror spells can make up for a lot, and if you concentrate on spells that affect you and your allies, you don't need the world's highest CHA. You can get by with a 13 or so.
It would be easy to rename spells as scales of the dragon (mage armor) or sight of the dragon (see invisibility).
The above-mentioned combo SOUNDS strong, until you actually look at it more closely: VERY poor BAB, spells that are light years behind a true caster's progression, no improvements to monk abilities.
If you decide to play a monk, try to stay single-classed. If you DO decide to stray, stray only in the direction of full BAB classes, so that you can maintain your tenuous grasp (grapple? ;) on melee competence.
I'm currently playing a Monk (Sacred Mountain)/Socerer(Blue dragon). I took 1 level socerer to every 5 levels monk.
I went with the Socerer for the flare not for any real mechanics reason. Although when I pop my claws cast Mage armor and am holding a shocking grasp that I deliver during a flurry of blows I feel pretty bad ass. Not to mention that if I choose to stay in one spot I am nearly impossible to hit. Between my Iron Limb defense, Mage armor, and ki point option I am looking at an Ac in the 30's.
I think you should go with what ever you think it going to be fun not what is most efficient.
I'm currently playing a Monk (Sacred Mountain)/Socerer(Blue dragon). I took 1 level socerer to every 5 levels monk.
I went with the Socerer for the flare not for any real mechanics reason. Although when I pop my claws cast Mage armor and am holding a shocking grasp that I deliver during a flurry of blows I feel pretty bad ass. Not to mention that if I choose to stay in one spot I am nearly impossible to hit. Between my Iron Limb defense, Mage armor, and ki point option I am looking at an Ac in the 30's.
I think you should go with what ever you think it going to be fun not what is most efficient.
Unfortunately, the Claws of a Dragon Sorcerer are considered Natural Weapons... and Natural Weapons aren't supposed to be able to be used with Flurry of Blows
Claws (Su): Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus.
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Unfortunate...
I'm currently playing a Monk (Sacred Mountain)/Socerer(Blue dragon). I took 1 level socerer to every 5 levels monk.
I went with the Socerer for the flare not for any real mechanics reason. Although when I pop my claws cast Mage armor and am holding a shocking grasp that I deliver during a flurry of blows I feel pretty bad ass. Not to mention that if I choose to stay in one spot I am nearly impossible to hit. Between my Iron Limb defense, Mage armor, and ki point option I am looking at an Ac in the 30's.
I think you should go with what ever you think it going to be fun not what is most efficient.
Unfortunately, the Claws of a Dragon Sorcerer are considered Natural Weapons... and Natural Weapons aren't supposed to be able to be used with Flurry of Blows
Claws (Su): Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus.A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.Unfortunate...
The claws don't do any additional damage but they sure look cool... At least in my head :)
