In this thread there are several mentions of Gamescience dice and gamers using them for their advertised accuracy as opposed to other companies' dice. Rather than jack that thread, I decided to pose my question here.
Those who are advocates for Gamescience dice, do you know of any studies that put numbers to the company's claim of better random distribution (is that the right mathematical term)? How pronounced is the difference? Is there a different feel when using them?
I've been curious about Gamescience dice for a while now, and I know there are some who swear by them. Would you be willing to explicate your fidelity for someone who wants to know?
|
I've bought enough Game Science dice and while I like the dice a lot I'm not sold on the idea that they are significantly more 'random' than a decent set of Chessex dice.
That said, I like sharp edged dice. I like the old-school feel and that they don't roll forever. If you like that then get them, you won't regret it. I get more compliments about my Game Science dice than any others.
My Gamerscience dice are lopsided and contain multiple malformed edges on each die. I have no doubt that they are just as bias, if not moreso than regular dice.
The owner of my local gaming store was trying to get me to buy these saying they were more accurate than the other dice he sells(a whole bunch of Chessex). By day, I am a CNC machinist. I make lots of different kind of parts with tight tolerances and I am required to inspect them using all kinds of measuring devices. While talking to the owner of the game store, I realized I had no idea how accurate the dice I owned were. So I decided to get some Gamescience dice and some of my Chessex dice and measure a couple of things on them.
I used a 0 to 1" micrometer to measure the parallel faces on the d20s. On the Chessex set, the distance from face to face varied .007" from lowest to highest, while the Gamescience set differed more at .012" from lowest to highest. I did the same thing to the others with the exception of the d4. On these 2 particular sets, the Chessex seemed more accurate.
If my fellow messageboard buddies are interested, I could take the sets to work and measure all kinds of things and get a clearer picture on the matter (If it already hasn't been done).
YAR :D
The owner of my local gaming store was trying to get me to buy these saying they were more accurate than the other dice he sells(a whole bunch of Chessex). By day, I am a CNC machinist. I make lots of different kind of parts with tight tolerances and I am required to inspect them using all kinds of measuring devices. While talking to the owner of the game store, I realized I had no idea how accurate the dice I owned were. So I decided to get some Gamescience dice and some of my Chessex dice and measure a couple of things on them.
I used a 0 to 1" micrometer to measure the parallel faces on the d20s. On the Chessex set, the distance from face to face varied .007" from lowest to highest, while the Gamescience set differed more at .012" from lowest to highest. I did the same thing to the others with the exception of the d4. On these 2 particular sets, the Chessex seemed more accurate.
If my fellow messageboard buddies are interested, I could take the sets to work and measure all kinds of things and get a clearer picture on the matter (If it already hasn't been done).
YAR :D
Indeed. You may proceed, Captain.
Did you watch the two videos that were posted on the other thread?
If I had seen those videos before I had ever bought any GameScience dice, I'd never have bought them (it's too late, now - there's a couple other color sets that I want).
Some like Sgt. Lou's - how do I put this politely - unique? style of marketing and evangelizing. Drives me INSANE.
They're not BAD dice, but for all the reasons Zocchi carries on about why painted/tumbled dice are oh-so-horrible, all I can think of is the gorgeous assortment of Chessex and Crystal Caste dice that I have, that sure don't seem to roll poorly.
That reminds me - I've bought a couple pounds of Chessex, I need to pick up a pound of GameScience dice soon...
If you are interested, here is a way to check your dice for rolling bias. I found it in issue 73 of Knights of the Dinner Table magazine, and was originally written by an Anthony Roberson. Just want to make sure I give credit where it is due. Warning, it involves rolling the dice a lot and a bit of math.
** spoiler omitted **
My Gamer Science D20 - an even 29.
1 16
2 13
3 8
4 5
5 10
6 5
7 10
8 8
9 10
10 9
11 11
12 3
13 5
14 14
15 6
16 14
17 17
18 13
19 11
20 12
Seems like a good die to use against players to me.
If you are interested, here is a way to check your dice for rolling bias. I found it in issue 73 of Knights of the Dinner Table magazine, and was originally written by an Anthony Roberson. Just want to make sure I give credit where it is due. Warning, it involves rolling the dice a lot and a bit of math.
** spoiler omitted **
My Gamer Science D20 - an even 29.
** spoiler omitted **
Seems like a good die to use against players to me.
Note that you need to roll the die 200 times before you start to get a reasonable assessment of your die's bias.
|
|
Did you watch the two videos that were posted on the other thread?
If I had seen those videos before I had ever bought any GameScience dice, I'd never have bought them (it's too late, now - there's a couple other color sets that I want).
Some like Sgt. Lou's - how do I put this politely - unique? style of marketing and evangelizing. Drives me INSANE.
When you work a convention show floor you bring the Sham-Wow or you might as well stay home. You have to have a spiel, you have to show excitement, you have to be engaging and have simple to understand visual aids. There is a fair chance there are booth babes one stall over, a juggler in the stall across the way, and 2 other guys pouring on their own brand of Sham-Wow in the booth next door.
That sort of thing doesn't translate well into YouTube videos because it feels like he's shouting at you and everything looks overly simplistic. that's not really a great way to demo a product online but I suspect he's been working trade shows for years and that's the way he knows how to sell things.
*shrug*
They're not BAD dice, but for all the reasons Zocchi carries on about why painted/tumbled dice are oh-so-horrible, all I can think of is the gorgeous assortment of Chessex and Crystal Caste dice that I have, that sure don't seem to roll poorly.
There are definitely bad dice out there. The Chessex sets I've used seem to work pretty well but I have some (other brands) that have some fairly lopsided corners. If nothing else the video does a good job pointing out that cheap dice are sometimes just that, cheap.
If you are interested, here is a way to check your dice for rolling bias. I found it in issue 73 of Knights of the Dinner Table magazine, and was originally written by an Anthony Roberson. Just want to make sure I give credit where it is due. Warning, it involves rolling the dice a lot and a bit of math.
** spoiler omitted **
Does anyone remember the BASIC program for doing a chi-squared test on your dice from Dragon #78? I think my brother actually typed it in, line by line, back in the day.
I'll bring some to work and post the results sometime this week.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
I recently used calipers to measure all the d20s I use on a regular basis. I have a pretty good sense of how each one rolls, be it high, low, or randomly.
Before I started I made a note of how I felt the die would roll, be it high, low, or random. Then I measured the distance between all ten of the parallel surfaces of the dice.
Most of the dice, with the exception of a d20 my wife uses, had the widest point at the 1-20 parallel. The next widest measurement was often directly next to that area, such as the 2-19 parallel. The smallest measurement was often one of the six parallels that were not directly next to the 20-1.
I was able to somewhat confirm which of the dice were high rollers, low rollers, and even rollers. Once I roll each one 200 times and record the findings I will be able to determine if I was correct in my assumptions.
Often, the difference between the widest and the smallest measurements was .7mm on 20mm dice. There were some with smaller differences, but nothing lower then .45mm.
Most of the dice were Chessex, but I have a couple from unknown sources I picked up a long time ago before I paid attention to dice companies.
There are definitely bad dice out there. The Chessex sets I've used seem to work pretty well but I have some (other brands) that have some fairly lopsided corners. If nothing else the video does a good job pointing out that cheap dice are sometimes just that, cheap.
Oh, I don't disagree, and there's been a couple of Chessex dice that I've chucked/replaced due to perceived issues, but, then again, I've probably got about 300 more Chessex than I do Zocchi, so naturally, I expect to find a couple of off dice.
Anyhow, in addition to the marketing style, I'm naturally a skeptic on such visual aids, and would have a hard time believing that the "uneven" stack of competitor dice weren't cherry-picked (or that the "perfect" stack of Zocchi dice weren't cherry-picked themselves). But, hey, whatever works for him and the company. They wouldn't be alone, and that kind of thing doesn't turn me off, it just doesn't sway me.
Clip marks are ugly, too. I know he addresses that, and I know why they exist on Zocchi dice. They're just hideous. Not so hideous that I haven't bought multiple sets of the "precision" dice, and not so hideous that I won't buy more, but, they still bug me. I wish that machining them, similar to actual precision casino dice, wouldn't add so much additional cost to the sets. THAT would be phenomenal.
Does anyone remember the BASIC program for doing a chi-squared test on your dice from Dragon #78? I think my brother actually typed it in, line by line, back in the day.If you are interested, here is a way to check your dice for rolling bias. I found it in issue 73 of Knights of the Dinner Table magazine, and was originally written by an Anthony Roberson. Just want to make sure I give credit where it is due. Warning, it involves rolling the dice a lot and a bit of math.
** spoiler omitted **
Here's a link I found to a reduced-math method of measuring your die's bias.
http://www.godsmonsters.com/Features/my-dice-random/
Basically, it shows how to use free statistical software to do the math. You just need a few lines of script and the patience to roll dice a few hundred times. You'll need to understand the output a little bit, but a few minutes of reading ought to take care of that.
|
|
Clip marks are ugly, too. I know he addresses that, and I know why they exist on Zocchi dice. They're just hideous. Not so hideous that I haven't bought multiple sets of the "precision" dice, and not so hideous that I won't buy more, but, they still bug me. I wish that machining them, similar to actual precision casino dice, wouldn't add so much additional cost to the sets. THAT would be phenomenal.
Yeah the clip marks are kind of ugly but I like the sharp edges enough I tolerate them. Machined dice would be awesome.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wuntz my edges sharp and crystal... so that's why I like these dice!
If I called up Chessex and told them a die I bought seemed to roll high too often, or had I taken a set of dice back down to a local game store and said the same... I would not expect the same result.
I haven't asked for replacement dice, but Chessex customer service has been more than friendly and accommodating when I've dealt with them. I wouldn't rule out the same level of CS.
Update: Turns out I have been a little busy at work and haven't had the opportunity to measure the dice yet but I will pretty soon.
I'm making a custom little aluminum fixture that bolts to the measuring table that holds the dice. I'm 99% percent sure I'll have some numbers on at least the D20 by Friday. Yar!
Wait, aren't you supposed to search for those random dice that favor rolling high? Thought that was part of the game.
We have a die that rolls 17s like crazy and one that used to roll 20s until one of the guys torched it.
Wait, aren't you supposed to search for those random dice that favor rolling high? Thought that was part of the game.
We have a die that rolls 17s like crazy and one that used to roll 20s until one of the guys torched it.
I just want to know whether or not it's worth it to spend my money buying ugly dice that I have to file nubs off, all for the sake of fairness (especially if I'm the GM). If not, then I will buy the pretty dice without nubs for the same price :D
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I just want to know whether or not it's worth it to spend my money buying ugly dice that I have to file nubs off, all for the sake of fairness (especially if I'm the GM). If not, then I will buy the pretty dice without nubs for the same price :DWait, aren't you supposed to search for those random dice that favor rolling high? Thought that was part of the game.
We have a die that rolls 17s like crazy and one that used to roll 20s until one of the guys torched it.
If you don't think the dice look nice don't use them. I like the squared edges myself.
If you don't think the dice look nice don't use them. I like the squared edges myself.I just want to know whether or not it's worth it to spend my money buying ugly dice that I have to file nubs off, all for the sake of fairness (especially if I'm the GM). If not, then I will buy the pretty dice without nubs for the same price :DWait, aren't you supposed to search for those random dice that favor rolling high? Thought that was part of the game.
We have a die that rolls 17s like crazy and one that used to roll 20s until one of the guys torched it.
I would use them if they proved to be more accurate. I'm just not sure they are what they claim they are.
|
I have a set of red Gamescience dice. I like them a lot, but not always over my cheesex dice. I enjoy the cheesex ones for the pretty colors, especially since I have a full set of the pink and black ones after gencon (10d6, 5d8), and I didnt feel like spending the money to get a full set of the game science ones. However, I like the precision dice for two reasons:
1) they don't roll as far. Im not sure I buy any of the stuff about them being more accurate but they certainly are more likely to stay on the table. Useful for certain situations.
2) I use them when I GM. Instead of using a GM screen (which I personally find separates me from my players) I find that the dice are hard to read across the table (I have unfilled ones). This was not my intention when I bought the dice, but I find that on the rare occasions that I fudge, the game science dice facilitate that.
|
Clip marks are ugly, too. I know he addresses that, and I know why they exist on Zocchi dice. They're just hideous. Not so hideous that I haven't bought multiple sets of the "precision" dice, and not so hideous that I won't buy more, but, they still bug me. I wish that machining them, similar to actual precision casino dice, wouldn't add so much additional cost to the sets. THAT would be phenomenal.Yeah the clip marks are kind of ugly but I like the sharp edges enough I tolerate them. Machined dice would be awesome.
I wonder if I could find a place that could machine an entire polyhedral set and if there would be a market for them.
