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I am close to 6th level, and I have not decided which rogue talent to take. The character is a "plain vanilla" (no archetype) rogue, copied from the iconic Merisiel, with the Dirty Fighter and Forlorn traits added. So far, I have:
1: Dodge
2: Combat trick (Point-Blank Shoy)
3: Precise Shot
4: Fast Stealth
5: Weapon Finesse
I am considering Guileful Polyglot (4 additional languages might be useful), Rogue Crawl (mostly for the 5' step while prone), Resiliency or Ledge Walker. Has anyone had experience with these?
I tend to do one of two things in combat; either I tumble around a lot to get into a good flanking position or I sneak around and shoot enemies if I can use Stealth.
It's hard to tell what you're going for. Even without archetypes, you're typically either an archery or melee rogue, and pick feats and talents to go with it. If you're going for melee, then Two-Weapon Fighting becomes a good option, to maximize sneak attack. If you're going ranged, then Dodge and Weapon Finesse are going to be largely useless to you.
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Thanks. I think I'll concentrate primarily on melee and use ranged as backup. I prefer melee. In the past, I used ranged attacks mostly when forced to play up - "Stay out of reach and keep shooting!"
Even though it is not usually much help in melee, I want to take Breadth of Experience. No one ever seems to have the right Knowledge skill.
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All I can say is you need to pick a path and stick to it. Right now you have a ton of feats that do not help you.
Some of the rogue talents you missed.
Follow Clues: Use perception to track. Very usefull alows you to do somthing you normal could not do. Personly I feal it's one of the most under rated rogue talents.
Surprise Attack: Very usefull for geting off your sneak attacks.
Weapon Training: Extra to hit for a low level rogue is never a wast.
I'll recomend your level 8, and 10 rogue talents.
Powerful Sneak, and Deadly Sneak. They incress the damage from your sneak attack. 1D6 avg. 3.5 Powerful Sneak Avg. 3.66 Deadly Sneak Avg. 4
I'll recomend your level 8, and 10 rogue talents.
Powerful Sneak, and Deadly Sneak. They incress the damage from your sneak attack. 1D6 avg. 3.5 Powerful Sneak Avg. 3.66 Deadly Sneak Avg. 4
That does come at a price in accuracy, though, which is very often (if not always) a problem for the rogue in combat.
Typically one extra miss will eat up all the extra damage from deadly sneak and then some; I think in general these talents are bad, even if in some specific situations or with particular party makeups it's possible to compensate for their downside.
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I'll recomend your level 8, and 10 rogue talents.
Powerful Sneak, and Deadly Sneak. They incress the damage from your sneak attack. 1D6 avg. 3.5 Powerful Sneak Avg. 3.66 Deadly Sneak Avg. 4That does come at a price in accuracy, though, which is very often (if not always) a problem for the rogue in combat.
Typically one extra miss will eat up all the extra damage from deadly sneak and then some; I think in general these talents are bad, even if in some specific situations or with particular party makeups it's possible to compensate for their downside.
This is not a problem if you know how to build a rogue. Most of the problem rogues have is bad builds.
This is not a problem if you know how to build a rogue. Most of the problem rogues have is bad builds.
Let me diplomatically say that that's highly campaign dependent.
They're a 3/4 BAB class that, combatwise, is expected to physically attack and doesn't get much in the way of help from their class abilities to hit. I can't think of any other class in the game for which that's true. If it's possible, in a given game, to build a rogue that has no problems hitting, then no character in the game has problems hitting.
I am close to 6th level, and I have not decided which rogue talent to take. The character is a "plain vanilla" (no archetype) rogue, copied from the iconic Merisiel, with the Dirty Fighter and Forlorn traits added. So far, I have:
1: Dodge
2: Combat trick (Point-Blank Shoy)
3: Precise Shot
4: Fast Stealth
5: Weapon FinesseI am considering Guileful Polyglot (4 additional languages might be useful), Rogue Crawl (mostly for the 5' step while prone), Resiliency or Ledge Walker. Has anyone had experience with these?
I tend to do one of two things in combat; either I tumble around a lot to get into a good flanking position or I sneak around and shoot enemies if I can use Stealth.
You might want to try to talk your GM into letting you "retrain" some of those feats. Some of the above posters are right that you're kind of all over the place, feat wise. Using Combat Trick for a ranged feat, when you're going to try to focus on melee, is a huge waste. Weapon training is almost a must (it's campaign dependent. If you know you're going to have access to whatever weapon you want, take it. If you're playing in an AP and it's not certain what weapons you'll pick up.... then it's your call).
Get mobility, then spring attack, then look at Fast Getaway. Offensive Defense is a nice one as well. Really, though, try to get your GM to let you retrain.
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This is not a problem if you know how to build a rogue. Most of the problem rogues have is bad builds.Let me diplomatically say that that's highly campaign dependent.
They're a 3/4 BAB class that, combatwise, is expected to physically attack and doesn't get much in the way of help from their class abilities to hit. I can't think of any other class in the game for which that's true. If it's possible, in a given game, to build a rogue that has no problems hitting, then no character in the game has problems hitting.
How is having 3/4 BAB difrent then using power attacks all the time? You end up with the same base number to hit. You just get damage from difrent places.
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How is having 3/4 BAB difrent then using power attacks all the time? You end up with the same base number to hit. You just get damage from difrent places.
Fighter - Weapon Training, Weapon Focus Tree
Barbarian - Rage, Rage PowersRanger - Favored Enemy, Spells
Paladin - Smite Evil, Spells
Cavalier - Challenge
Bard - Inspire Courage, Spells
Druid - Wild Shape, Spells
Cleric - Spells
Alchemist - Mutagen, Spells
Inquisitor - Judgement, Spells
Magus - Spells
Full BAB classes have not only full BAB but also an additional bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Even the monk has Flurry of Blows.
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How is having 3/4 BAB difrent then using power attacks all the time? You end up with the same base number to hit. You just get damage from difrent places.
You are right: playing a rogue IS like using Power Attack all of the time, which is why stacking an ADDITIONAL -2 on top of that (with the Talents that you suggested) is generally a recipe for doing LESS damage.
Accuracy should be the number one focus for a rogue, since they do great damage IF THEY HIT. Fighters, in particular, can get so many bonuses to their attack that accuracy isn't the major issues -- but that is definitely not true for rogues.
Rogues need to keep their primary attack stat (DEX in this case) max'd out as much as possible, especially if they want to go down the route of TWF for the additional attacks )and the additional sneak dice).
I've done some damage calculations that indicate that taking 3-5 levels of fighter, to pickup on Weapon Training (or Weapon Master Weapon Training) adds good damage potential. You can use the Fighter levels to pickup more offensive feats -- and you can leverage Gloves of Dueling, which are an AMAZING melee item for fighters and multiclass fighters.
FYI: the calcs that I did showed the best damage potential to be a high-STR fighter/rogue using a two handed weapon, rather than TWF or DEX-based rogues or fighter/rogues.
I'd ask to retrain as well. You say you want melee, but took ranged feats/talents.
I won't lay out a full build (using my phone), but here's some tips.
Dazzling Display, Conrugan smash, Shatter Defenses is crazy good. It let's you full attack SA with no flank. You need good STR and Power attack for it (awesome synergy for a 2handed, Brute, Scout rogue)
Menacing is a wicked good enchantment-grants +4 to hit when you flank instead of +2. You only need it on one of your weapons and your buddy gets the bonus as well.
Weapon Focus is nice if your weapons are matched. If you go Scimitar/Kukri though Big Game Hunter is better. Vs large OR bigger creatures (Re:MOST things above CR9.)You get +1 to attack and +2damage, no matter what you're wielding, ranged as well.
IF you a dual wielding non matched weapons, get a glove of storing on your off hand. Walk around with just the Scimitar out. If you need to move and attack or AOO you can two hand the Scimitar. On your turn to full attack, unsheathe your offhand weapon from the magic glove (free action) and TWF, then after the full attack, sheathe the Kukri again (free action) so you can 2hand any AOO'S or if you need to move and attack again.
This 'fixes' the sucky damage TWF's normally do for 1handed AOO'S/Standard attacks (removes the -2to hit for TWF as well)
Offensive Defense is a great rogue talent. Really UPS your AC.
I *assume* you're trying to do a Shot on the Run build? I hope?
Your best bet is probably Weapon Training. +1 to hit is huge. At 6th level, you're already at -2 vs. a full BAB class.
My suggestion is Bleeding Attack. It's funny how often just those last few points of bleeding damage will take down a creature before it gets 1 last turn at 1 hp.
You might want to try to talk your GM into letting you "retrain" some of those feats. Some of the above posters are right that you're kind of all over the place, feat wise.
+1, ask your GM to retrain and remove the ranged feats.
'Rogue Crawl', relatively worthless, it still provokes the attack of opportunity if I remember correctly
I recommend the 'Assault Leader' talent from the APG if you find yourself flanking for others a lot. The 'Gang-Up' feat works well for flanking also, but requires 'Combat Expertise', really useful if you have a melee focused party to get sneak attacks without having to run around the entire combat... longspear. ;)
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Thanks, but I have no interest in retraining the ranged feats. I use the ranged attack as appropriate, as a backup to melee combat. I do one or the other as the situation demands. I do not want to lose that ability as a good option.
Rogue Crawl allows a 5' step while prone, so it does have some use. Getting out of reach before standing can be quite useful.
Assault Leader is very good, but only once. I have been weighing that.
Bleed looks very attractive, but I have often heard that it turns out not to be as good as it seems. The guy whose character got killed this week by a BBEG at 1 HP probably wishes there had been a rogue in his party with Bleeding Attack, though. (He took a confirmed critical hit for enough damage to knock him from full HP to less than negative CON - ouch.)
Given the variable attendance at our PFS group, sometimes I am the low-level party member, playing up. The best (or only) survival strategy is to stay out of reach and shoot things. Other times the party is relatively weak in melee but strong in ranged combat. Then I need to be more in the thick of things. A single-minded focus is just not suitable for me or this character. Do I seem all over the map? Yes. I have found that this character needs to fill multiple roles, depending on who else is there and the nature of the adventure.
Well, I'll have to make some sort of decision Thursday. If I survive the game Wednesday night, I reach 6th level. Thanks for your input, everyone!
Rogue Crawl allows a 5' step while prone, so it does have some use. Getting out of reach before standing can be quite useful.
Rogue Crawl (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability
can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks ofopportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a
5-foot step while crawling.
You aren't gaining any bonus from 'crawling' out of the threatened square, they still get an AoO, the same as standing. Which is the reason I used the word 'worthless'.
I don't know if this is RAW or RAI, but our group's Rogues have always used the Acrobatics(Tumble) Skill to stand from prone AND avoid the AoO for standing. It's a move action, standing is a form of movement.
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Rogue Crawl allows a 5' step while prone, so it does have some use. Getting out of reach before standing can be quite useful.Rogue Crawl (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability
can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of
opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a
5-foot step while crawling.You aren't gaining any bonus from 'crawling' out of the threatened square, they still get an AoO, the same as standing. Which is the reason I used the word 'worthless'.
I don't know if this is RAW or RAI, but our group's Rogues have always used the Acrobatics(Tumble) Skill to stand from prone AND avoid the AoO for standing. It's a move action, standing is a form of movement.
Put the next sentence in boldface. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.
I should ask a GM whether I could use Acrobatics while prone.
IF you a dual wielding non matched weapons, get a glove of storing on your off hand. Walk around with just the Scimitar out. If you need to move and attack or AOO you can two hand the Scimitar. On your turn to full attack, unsheathe your offhand weapon from the magic glove (free action) and TWF, then after the full attack, sheathe the Kukri again (free action) so you can 2hand any AOO'S or if you need to move and attack again.
This 'fixes' the sucky damage TWF's normally do for 1handed AOO'S/Standard attacks (removes the -2to hit for TWF as well)
Why do I picture this build to be perfect for Michael Jackson? :P
Make sure you invest in perform dance and perform sing if you take this. :D
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IF you a dual wielding non matched weapons, get a glove of storing on your off hand. Walk around with just the Scimitar out. If you need to move and attack or AOO you can two hand the Scimitar. On your turn to full attack, unsheathe your offhand weapon from the magic glove (free action) and TWF, then after the full attack, sheathe the Kukri again (free action) so you can 2hand any AOO'S or if you need to move and attack again.
This 'fixes' the sucky damage TWF's normally do for 1handed AOO'S/Standard attacks (removes the -2to hit for TWF as well)Why do I picture this build to be perfect for Michael Jackson? :P
Make sure you invest in perform dance and perform sing if you take this. :D
+1 <laughter>
I can see it now, Moonwalk into combat with a successful bluff/dance check and BAM Surprise round.