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I have a Magus ready for play in PFS. I want to be sure that I understand correctly the rules for copying a scroll into my spellbook.
Suppose I find a scroll of a first level spell on the Magus spell list. If I want to copy the spell into my spellbook during the adventure, I can do the necessary things, copy the spell, and now have a blank piece of parchment. The scroll would still appear on the chronicle, and I could purchase the scroll later. If it is a first level scroll, it is on the "always available" list anyway. Now that I think of it, a first level scroll wouldn't even appear on the chronicle sheet, would it?
If I want to copy the spell after the adventure, I would have to buy the scroll at full retail price and do the necessary things. I would have to roll the Spellcraft check in the presence of a GM.
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I have a Magus ready for play in PFS. I want to be sure that I understand correctly the rules for copying a scroll into my spellbook.
Suppose I find a scroll of a first level spell on the Magus spell list. If I want to copy the spell into my spellbook during the adventure, I can do the necessary things, copy the spell, and now have a blank piece of parchment. The scroll would still appear on the chronicle, and I could purchase the scroll later. If it is a first level scroll, it is on the "always available" list anyway. Now that I think of it, a first level scroll wouldn't even appear on the chronicle sheet, would it?
If I want to copy the spell after the adventure, I would have to buy the scroll at full retail price and do the necessary things. I would have to roll the Spellcraft check in the presence of a GM.
Sounds like you have the basics, yes.
You do not lose the scroll from your Chronicle if you scribe it, for scrolls higher than 1st level if you scribe it during the session. You play the cost of the scroll if you wanted to scribe it after the session. Your Spellcraft roll is in the presence of a GM in either case.
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Sounds like you have the basics, yes.
You do not lose the scroll from your Chronicle if you scribe it, for scrolls higher than 1st level if you scribe it during the session. You play the cost of the scroll if you wanted to scribe it after the session. Your Spellcraft roll is in the presence of a GM in either case.
In most cases there is time at the end of the adventure but before the 'End' of the adventure to copy any left over scrolls that you might need into your spell book.
Edit: Just didn't word it carefully the first time.
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Sounds like you have the basics, yes.
You do not lose the scroll from your Chronicle if you scribe it, for scrolls higher than 1st level if you scribe it during the session. You play the cost of the scroll if you wanted to scribe it after the session. Your Spellcraft roll is in the presence of a GM in either case.
In most cases there is time at the end of the adventure but before the 'End' of the adventure to copy any left over scrolls that you might need into your spell book.
Edit: Just didn't word it carefully the first time.
I went back and changed the word 'adventure' to 'session' for that very reason :)
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In most cases there is time at the end of the adventure but before the 'End' of the adventure to copy any left over scrolls that you might need into your spell book.
If you actually used the scroll during the scenario, I'm guessing that you couldn't copy it at the end, and you'd need to purchase it if you wanted to scribe it?
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In most cases there is time at the end of the adventure but before the 'End' of the adventure to copy any left over scrolls that you might need into your spell book.If you actually used the scroll during the scenario, I'm guessing that you couldn't copy it at the end, and you'd need to purchase it if you wanted to scribe it?
Yes, consumed consumables are consumed. =)
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Yes, consumed consumables are consumed. =)In most cases there is time at the end of the adventure but before the 'End' of the adventure to copy any left over scrolls that you might need into your spell book.If you actually used the scroll during the scenario, I'm guessing that you couldn't copy it at the end, and you'd need to purchase it if you wanted to scribe it?
I dare you to say that three times real fast. :-0
Yes, consumed consumables are consumed. =)
Wait a second...are you saying, for instance, that if you have two wizards in the party, only one can copy the scroll for free and the other one's out of luck (since scribing from a scroll consumes the scroll)?
My interpretation was that PFS has some special rule in place so that everyone can copy from a scroll into a spellbook as long as they have access on their chronicle, regardless of how it would work in a normal game.
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Yes, consumed consumables are consumed. =)Wait a second...are you saying, for instance, that if you have two wizards in the party, only one can copy the scroll for free and the other one's out of luck (since scribing from a scroll consumes the scroll)?
My interpretation was that PFS has some special rule in place so that everyone can copy from a scroll into a spellbook as long as they have access on their chronicle, regardless of how it would work in a normal game.
I has always ran it, that it was consumed once scribed, but I will gladly change it if they want it the way you think it is.
And Matt Beatty assume the same for all classes that can learn from scrolls, this was clarified in some post somewhere in these forums.
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Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco
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My problem with learning new scrolls is this. Wizards get to learn new spells from scrolls for free. They do not have to purchase said scroll from the chronicle sheet and then learn it. They just get that scroll for learning purposes for free. However, when this section was written, wizards were the only class with a learning mechanic like this, but that has changed. We now have multiple classes that learn new spells from found scrolls but these classes do not get them for free. I would love to say that we can lump the witch and magus in with the wizard for this rule, but as written we can't. Hopefully this will be changed in the next edition of the Guide to organized play.
Wizards do not get to learn spells from a scroll for free, they still have to pay the material cost detailed below, but the change in the PFS Guide when Season 1 kicked off was a welcome departure from the horrible Season 0 rule that you had to buy a scroll of every spell you came across, even if it was in an NPC wizard's spellbook, before you could copy it into your spellbook. Now the rule is that, just like learning them from another wizard's (or magus's) spellbook, you have to make a spellcraft check to understand it, then pay the appropriate cost in materials to scribe it, assuming you didn't use up the scroll by casting that spell in play. From page 219 of the Core Rulebook:
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.
Time: /snipped
Space in the Spellbook: /snipped
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on the following table. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.Spell Writing
Level Cost
0 5 gp
1 10 gp
2 40 gp
3 90 gp
4 160 gp
5 250 gp
6 360 gp
7 490 gp
8 640 gp
9 810 gp
Although the PFS Guide to Organized Play states that only a wizard can freely copy a scroll into his spellbook, I have yet to meet a PFS GM that won't make the tiny logical leap and allow a magus the same privilege.
Wait a second...are you saying, for instance, that if you have two wizards in the party, only one can copy the scroll for free and the other one's out of luck (since scribing from a scroll consumes the scroll)?
Hogarth, the solution is simple: If you have two (or more) wizards, two+ magi, or a wizard and a magus in a party and only one scroll of a spell that neither has learned before, then the one that makes his successful Spellcraft check scribes it into his spellbook, after which the other makes his Spellcraft check and, if successful, copies it from one spellbook to the other. The material cost for each is the same, unless the spell level for one class is different than the other. Why a wizard and a magus wouldn't welcome the opportunity to learn these and other spells out of each other's spellbooks is beyond me.
Dragnmoon, I cannot find the thread you reference, nor does a board ruling become "official" or mandatory until incorporated in the PFS Guide. As Mark Moreland said here:
Keep in mind that something that appears only on the boards is not a "rule" as we're defining it. It's a "guideline" or "suggestion." Choosing not to follow a suggestion is any player or GM's prerogative, regardless of whether that suggestion comes from someone on the Paizo staff or your cousin Humphrey. That said, a GM still has final say at her table; if she makes a call that does not violate a rule that appears in the printed (or online) campaign documentation, players are expected to obey, even if they have seen contrary statements on the boards from the campaign staff.
The wizard/magus spellbook solution, unfortunately, does not apply to a witch teaching a spell on a scroll to her familiar, which destroys the scroll before it can be learned and scribed into a spellbook, nor does it appear that a witch can teach her familiar a spell from another player's spellbook. Again, I cannot see any reasonable PFS GM not stretching the wizard spellbook rule from the PFS Guide and allowing a witch the same privilege of using up a scroll in this manner during the game play, but we can only stretch that rule so far...
Hogarth, the solution is simple: If you have two (or more) wizards, two+ magi, or a wizard and a magus in a party and only one scroll of a spell that neither has learned before, then the one that makes his successful Spellcraft check scribes it into his spellbook, after which the other makes his Spellcraft check and, if successful, copies it from one spellbook to the other.
That's an excellent point, although you still have odd corner cases (e.g. an alchemist and a witch can both learn spells from scrolls, but not from each other). But I still thought the wording in the PFS Guide implied that you only had to have access to the scroll on your Chronicle in order to scribe it and that it didn't say anything about it having to be unconsumed. Does anyone have the exact wording in front of them?
Thamius,
What you quoted from Mark only applies to posts made by either himself or Hyrum from that point in time onward. Any other rulings they, or especially the previous head Joshua Frost, posted as official updates or rules changes still stand. So you have to check the time stamp on anything they wrote before either following or ignoring it. People need to remember that Mark and Hyrum have never posted that all of Josh's official forum posts made after his last version of the Guide are nullified or anything like that, so those all stand as official until they do change them.
And as for the spell issue, in the same way that a party of six characters can all buy the same unique sword from a chronicle, so too could a party of six wizards do the same with a single scroll. So if those same wizards all tell the GM at the end of the scenario during wrap-up that they all want to scribe the spell into their book, then they can. What they cannot do is during the adventure have more than one of them scribe it into their book, because then it is consumed, just as if they had cast the spell from the scroll. But so long as it is not used up during the course of the adventure, then any caster able to do so would be able to copy the scroll into their book during the wrap-up of the scenario without having to buy it from the chronicle first.
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Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco
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That's an excellent point, although you still have odd corner cases (e.g. an alchemist and a witch can both learn spells from scrolls, but not from each other). But I still thought the wording in the PFS Guide implied that you only had to have access to the scroll on your Chronicle in order to scribe it and that it didn't say anything about it having to be unconsumed. Does anyone have the exact wording in front of them?
Those are two very different corner cases, because an alchemist can take a wizard's (or magus's) spellbook and translate those spells into formulae, but not vice versa. Two cooperative players should allow the wizard or magus to copy the spell first, then the alchemist can copy it from the former's spellbook. A party with an alchemist and a witch is a most interesting corner case, to be sure.
This is the ruling straight out of the PFS Guide:
Wizards and Their Spellbooks
Pages 219–220 in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook discuss how to handle a wizard’s spellbook, but Pathfinder Society makes one adjustment to these rules: a wizard does not have to purchase a scroll found during the course of a scenario in order to copy that scroll into her spellbook. The wizard only needs to spend the time, succeed on the appropriate checks, and spend the amount of gold listed on the table on page 219 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Keep in mind that the process of copying a spell from a magic scroll into a wizard’s spellbook removes the spell from the copied scroll, turning it into a blank piece of normal parchment.The normal rules for finding items during the course of a scenario are that they can be used during the scenario but must be purchased after the scenario in order to be kept. This clarification for wizards and their spellbooks is the singular exception to the gear rules. See Chapter 9 for the full rules on finding items and treasure.
But so long as it is not used up during the course of the adventure, then any caster able to do so would be able to copy the scroll into their book during the wrap-up of the scenario without having to buy it from the chronicle first.
It's the last sentence of the first paragraph I was focusing on in my interpretation that only an unused scroll can be copied into a spellbook, an interpretation that Enevhar also makes. However, I can see where the wording in the Guide might allow for another interpretation, although it doesn't make much logical sense to me that an expended scroll can then be scribed into multiple spellbooks. Until it is clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt this will come down to GM ruling.
Enevhar, thanks for the clarification on Mark's statement. Since I cannot find this posting that Dragnmoon is referring to I cannot say who said it or when.
Thanks for quoting the section of the Guide. It really does seem to imply that the scroll needs to be unused and that only one person can scribe from the scroll.
However, I can see where the wording in the Guide might allow for another interpretation, although it doesn't make much logical sense to me that an expended scroll can then be scribed into multiple spellbooks.
It doesn't make much logical sense to me that a party can find a potion of Gaseous Form (say), have someone drink it, and yet still effectively have multiple copies of that same potion available at the end of the module as treasure on the chronicle sheet. But I can understand it from a fairness point of view.
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Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco
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It doesn't make much logical sense to me that a party can find a potion of Gaseous Form (say), have someone drink it, and yet still effectively have multiple copies of that same potion available at the end of the module as treasure on the chronicle sheet. But I can understand it from a fairness point of view.
I completely agree, from a fairness point of view, that everyone should have equal access to an item, even a consumable like a potion or scroll.
Then again, I'm sure the Grand Lodge library must have hundreds of discovered or captured spellbooks, why my wizard can't gain supervised access to those, in the interest of greater knowledge and skill, and scribe whatever spell I want into my spellbook is a topic for another thread...
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What you quoted from Mark only applies to posts made by either himself or Hyrum from that point in time onward. Any other rulings they, or especially the previous head Joshua Frost, posted as official updates or rules changes still stand. So you have to check the time stamp on anything they wrote before either following or ignoring it. People need to remember that Mark and Hyrum have never posted that all of Josh's official forum posts made after his last version of the Guide are nullified or anything like that, so those all stand as official until they do change them.
Interesting. Do you know of any such clarification of what Mark posted? I do not recall there being a time related declaration with the details and understood it to mean any and all forum rules are not "official" until they appear in an FAQ/Errata or the Guide for Organized Play. Although, it is not unreasonable to being observing them immediately assuming that they will translate to the next update.
Bob,
I would have to hunt for the specific post made by Mark or Hyrum, but I am pretty sure that at about the same time that Mark made the above quoted post, that one of them used the phrasing "from this point on" to describe how to treat any clarifications or rulings they made after that. The way I understood how they stated it elsewhere about that "Rules Changes" thread was that as of that date, April 20th, their posts should be treated only as clarifications or suggestions until they appeared in the Guide, but that this change was not retroactive to all their previous forum rulings. But if they actually meant it to be retroactive, it would be helpful if one of them would say so here.
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What you quoted from Mark only applies to posts made by either himself or Hyrum from that point in time onward. Any other rulings they, or especially the previous head Joshua Frost, posted as official updates or rules changes still stand. So you have to check the time stamp on anything they wrote before either following or ignoring it. People need to remember that Mark and Hyrum have never posted that all of Josh's official forum posts made after his last version of the Guide are nullified or anything like that, so those all stand as official until they do change them.I don't think all of the rulings have been collected. I try to point out to Mark what might be needed to be updated.
Mike
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Holy parchment! I really seem to have found a complicated issue here. Let me see if I've got this straight. Here are some things that could happen.
1. No one touches the scroll during the adventure. The scroll appears on the module and anyone who wants one can buy it. We'll assume the Society has a really cool magic photocopy machine.
2. A player could read the scroll during the adventure. The scroll would then become a blank piece of paper. The scroll would still appear on the chronicle, precisely as if it had not been used. Each player could buy a copy of the scroll.
3. One player (Wizard "A") could copy the spell into his spellbook during the adventure. The scroll would then become blank, just as if it had been used to cast the spell. Other players could then copy the spell from A's spellbook into their own spellbooks. No one would have to buy the scroll in order to do this, but each would have the option to buy the scroll from the chronicle. Each would have to spend the same amount of gold to get copy the spell.
4. One player (Witch "B") could destroy the scroll to teach the spell to his or her familiar. No other players would then be able to copy the scroll into their spellbooks. The scroll would still appear on the chronicle and each player could buy it.
5. Options 3. and 4. above are mutually exclusive. If a wizard (or magus) learns the spell, others can copy it from said wizard, but no witch can learn the spell without buying the scroll. If the witch learns the spell, the book-based spell casters have to buy the scroll to learn the spell.
6. Sorcerer "C" is out of luck in any event. The rules provide no way for a sorcerer to learn new spells save by advancing in level.
Sagotel,
Sounds to me like you got it about right. And to add more complexity to it, it an item on a chronicle does not specifically list a limit of how many of an item you can buy, then you can buy as many of that item as you can afford. So if a scroll (or wand or magic arrows or whatever) is listed as only two of that item can be bought, then for the life of your character, you can buy that item only two times. But if there is no limit listed, then you can buy as many copies as you want from that chronicle over the life of your character.
