What roles do spies fill?

[Count_Rugen]

Hey all,

I was pondering making a spy character but the APG has kind of discouraged me, because it seems like spies are a class that suits a specifically-designed campaign and not very usable for your average game. So I guess my question is, what role or niche do spies fill? Are they suitable for an "average" game, or do they basically really only shine in urban and political-heavy adventures?

Thanks

EDIT: Just to ensure my post isn't vague...yes, I know a spy's thematic "role" is to be a spy (gather info, spy on people, etc). But I wanted to know what their mechanical role is? Does that even make sense?

To put it another way, a wizard can still pull his own weight whether he's in a city or in a jungle. So can a fighter. So can a sorcerer. Can a spy? Or, bereft of their "soft skills" are they basically just a watered-down rogue?

[uriel222]

The problem is that a spy is really a specialization. Just like a mounted jungle druid wouldn't fit into an urban campaign, a spy doesn't fit into a dungeon crawl.

[moon glum]

If you are referring to the spy archetype, the bluff bonus will be nice at higher levels, and poison use is good, but you will not be the trap finder of the party. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have an excuse to avoid being the person that attempts to find and disarm all of the traps...

Spies will be more into solo infiltration and assasination than your typical rogue, using their bluff skill and judiciously applied poisons to mess with an enemy even before the actual attack occurs.

If you are referring to the 'master spy' prestige class, they are even better at the above, and a good excuse to avoid the archetype (since you can have both the bluff bonus and trap finding).

[Steelfiredragon]

its sneak attack is just as effective

its stealth is just as effective

[DeathQuaker]

While the Spy archetype's Bluff bonus does not apply to feint, because you know you will be buying up Bluff, it still makes it a decent archetype for a Feint build (good for many rogue builds in fact)--which can help the rogue stay useful in combat and also eventually help his party do better in combat too (when he gets to Greater Feint).

The poison use can be helpful for hopefully fairly obvious reasons.

If you're designing a character for a real game, it's best to have this discussion with your fellow players. You can all talk about how your character concepts and the associated possible class builds may be able to work together.

[Dire Mongoose]

Wait, is there some angle that makes Feint good that I've missed? It always struck me as a huge trap option.

If it takes my whole round to swing at a guy once and roll sneak attack once *if* I can hit, it's about time for me to run away.

I've got to be missing something.