Ebon Destroyer: Has anyone played it?

[Douglas Muir 406]

I got CotED and read through it. It looked... fine. I have my doubts about the mystery part, but the rest of it looks like a pretty straightforward "cross country trip to the bad guy's lair, followed by discovery of and assault on same".

The reviews are nasty, but I don't see it myself. "Too hard" -- how? "Too many buffs" -- okay, that's an issue. But let's face it, from about level 6 onwards buffs are a big part of the game. Having a BBEG with buffs piled on is a legitimate tactic, though I agree that it becomes tedious if overused.

I find it hard to judge a module without having played it, but it doesn't seem like this one quite deserves the negative reviews. I'd be interested to hear what people who've actually played it think.

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Looking at the buffs issue: there is one boss, a 12th level NPC, who casts nineteen (!) buffs on himself before engaging -- and that's not counting his permanent Darkvision and See Invisibility spells. Another boss has 12 buffs.

I'm a bit torn on this. On one hand, it makes perfect sense for NPCs with lots of buffs to use them, and an uberbuffed NPC can be interesting as an *occasional* thing. And it's not grossly overused in the first half of the module. A rakshasa casts Mage Armor and Shield on himself; reasonable. Another NPC uses Invisibility, Shield and Cat's Grace "if she has time"; reasonable. A third uses Haste and Displacement; still okay IMO.

On the other hand, /nineteen frickin' buffs/.

Okay, breaking it down, I see two problems here. One is that, as DM, I have to familiarize myself with these buffs. Some are included in the stats; some are not. But if the players start throwing Dispel Magics, I need to know what these things do.

The other issue is that, reading the description, I'm not sure the buffs are being applied in a reasonable order. Unless you know you're facing a bunch of gnome pyromancers, would you really cast Energy Resistance (Fire) before Barkskin or Shield? -- Okay, I guess that's pretty minor. But: buffs have durations. I need to keep rough track of per minute buffs, and very close and accurate track of per round ones. His keystone buff is Transformation (that's the 6th level spell that turns you into a melee killing machine), and that lasts exactly 11 rounds. So he'd want to cast it at exactly the right time, just before the PCs show up.

I see what the author was trying for with the Buffy NPC. It's a monk 1/Transmuter 11 who uses the buffs plus some environmental stuff (smoke, Blind Fight feat) to turn himself into a whirling melee storm of death. It's kind of a fun idea. But... give a poor DM some warning, and maybe some help. Running this guy straight off the stat block wouldn't be easy.

-- The funny thing is, at the end of the day he's not that powerful a boss. 121 hp, AC 31, displacement and damage resistance, attacks +21/+21/+16/+11 for a d6+6. An 8th or 9th level PC barbarian raging with Haste on him will reasonably attack at +20/+20/+15 for something like 2d6+18. The barb's going to average about 15 points of damage per full attack, the sorceror is going to pump in about the same with Magic Missile... those two guys alone will probably take him down in four rounds, and that's assuming the cleric and paladin don't do much.

Again, has anyone actually run this? Thoughts?

Doug M.

[Qualidar]

I'm curious to hear from actual players as well. The subject matter is very interesting to me, and I'm thinking of picking it up, even with the rancid rating.

[Douglas Muir 406]

There's some attempt to portray it as an "alien" cultural setting (as opposed to just reskinning an ordinary adventure with vaguely Indian names and Indian-themed monsters). For instance, there's a point where NPCs ask the party to split up according to caste and gender.

Mind, he could have done a lot more with this. It's not just a reskinning -- but there's not much culture shock, either. The cult is obviously based on Thuggee and, woo, there's /so/ much more that could have been done there.

Other-other hand, it's a module, not a sourcebook.

I don't think it's sliced-bread great, but I don't think the reviews do it justice either. It's reasonably flavorful and not actually stupid.

But, again, would really like to hear from some actual DMs and players.

Doug M.

[minneyar]

I just finished running this module today, and overall it was pretty fun. The investigation part at the beginning was great, and some of the combat encounters were a lot of fun, but by the end I think my group was getting pretty tired of having one tough encounter after another thrown at them. We started with a rogue, inquisitor, cleric, and gunslinger, but the inquisitor died in the rakshasa fight and decided to come back as a druid, and later on a new player joined the group as a ranger.

I would have really liked it if the players got to spend more time in the festival at the beginning. It says to give them the opportunity to show off and perform some feats of strength, but it doesn't provide any suggestions for how to get them involved in that, and I have no idea what would be involved in such celebrations. There's also the potential during the investigation that the players will simply not have the skill checks they need and end up failing. My players didn't, fortunately, but I don't like it when investigations have the potential to suddenly end in failure because nobody has Appraise or a particular Knowledge skill.

On the other hand, if your players are lucky, nail their skill rolls, and progress quickly from point to point, they will missmany of the cultists' acts of retribution, and as a DM, those were some of my favorite things.

Ikrimah was definitely the toughest encounter for us -- for me because tracking all of his buffs was a huge pain in the butt, and for them because they had a lot of trouble hurting him. With his AC, stoneskin, and displacement, the physical fighters had trouble hitting him and weren't doing a lot when they did. He got up close to the druid and dropped him near the beginning of the fight, and it was a few rounds before anybody was able stabilize him. His Transformation ran out during the fight, so he hit the cleric with Disintegrate, who failed his save and died.

Some of the encounters are set up assuming the enemies will behave stupidly. In the silk mill, the module seems to assume the players will take one room at a time, and none of the enemies in the other rooms will respond to the shouts of pain and agony coming from the other rooms, which are easy to hear thanks to the open rafters. If all of the enemies rush out and pile on to the players, it's a very tough fight. Similarly, if the players didn't kill the rakshasa earlier, he's supposed to show up here, and I think that would make this fight go from "very tough" to "impossible."

The weretiger could easily coup de grace party members in their sleep if he's smart about it. But his stat block says he starts by casting Entangle and then charging, so...

It would also go very, very badly for the players if all three of the masters ganged up on them instead of hiding in their corners of the temple.

Zaafira's offer to challenge one of the players is also a bad idea, because if one of them accepts, she'll crush them if you play her smart (level 11 vs. level 8, seriously?), and the rest of the party will be bored just sitting back and watching.

On another note, my players saw the betrayal of the cultist villagers coming a mile away, and on top of that, the fight with them was very, very easy. Kind of disappointing, given how tough everything else is.

Anyway, overall it was pretty fun, but if I was going to do it again, I would:
1) Add some more events at the beginning so the players can roleplay in the culture a bit.
2) Tone down the encounter difficulty a bit and reduce the number of encounters in the last half of the module.

I also read that in earlier versions of the module, there was another sequence at the end where the papers in the cultists' temple implicated a particular NPC back at the palace as the real leader of the cult. I think it'd be fun to have another investigation/roleplaying phase where the players have to hunt him down in the palace.

[Rosgakori]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking too. Ikrimah seemed kind a difficult encounter, So I think of dropping most of his hard buffs.

I'm lucky that way, because in my group there are lot's of exciting abilities and skills. Draconic sorcerer/Dragon disciple, crossbow-crazy ranger (with unnatural fear of wolves) and exotic fighter-pathfinder who uses urumi. I was thinking of adding competitions to the festival, so they can show-off and that way become known. i was also thinking of some kind of "tests" of Maruya-Rahm, like sending goons to try their fighting ability.

The weretiger's ambush is cool part of the sotry, but i'm about to change it. He tries to coup de grace the party, but either their guide or the elephants notices the weretiger and starts to yell. On the other hand, in our group's case, that might not be necessary after all. They always put someone to watch while others sleep. So, let's see how it goes.

I really like this module for it's exotic setting, investigation (I love that) and exotic enemies. I'm expecting same from my players!

[Matt Goodall]

Hi guys, nice to hear your experiences with CotED.

I have run it quite a few times, but as the author I'm not objective because I probably mentally replace what I wrote with how I imagined it would work.

**** Spoilers ****

I would have loved to have written more about the festival, but the instruction was to minimise it. (You can see this from the developer's feedback in the RPG Superstar forum.)

For the silk mill, I was hoping it would be a running battle. The PCs come in the front (or back) room and start fighting the cultists there. Utkroza (the garuda) hears this, buffs for a couple of rounds and then attacks from the rafters with his bodyguards. If attacked directly, he retreats to the other (back or front) room and the PCs fight the second group of cultists there. Utkroza retreats outside through a window, and after the PCs mop up inside, then has a final aerial battle with the PCs.

I'd probably have the Rakshasa show up after all of this fighting was done (it's really unlikely the PCs will get to the silk mill without facing him though.)

As for the weretiger CdGing people in their sleep, he has a great stealth but he can't go invisible. I wrote the tactics assuming that the PCs would have watches and that they would sleep in line of sight of each other (standard adventuring camping procedure). If they are foolish enough to not set watches in a hostile environment, well ... all I can say is at least go for someone with smelly resin on their forehead. :-)

Zaafira's offer to challenge one of the players may not be a fair challenge, but she is a villian, and villians don't have to play fair. I've found that after having beaten their way through all of the cult's minions that most groups barely let her get a word out before charging. Also one of Dhalevei's domains is 'deception', smart PCs should suspect a trap. I actually feel that there are a number of PCs, such as a 'combat' paladin, or a grapple character, that could beat her in a 1 on 1 fight. I know it is level 8 vs level 11, but that is a level 8 with PC wealth (and friendly buffs from other party members) vs. a multi-class monk (not the best combo in the world), with standard array for stats, who only has NPC wealth.

Ikrimah and all his buffs: they are all included in his stat block but you really only have to track the 'round per level' ones: displacement, haste, and transformation (these are the ones he casts last). He has a ring of counterspells with dispel magic in it not to make it harder on the PCs, but easier on the GM. :-)
Douglas, I'm glad you can see what I was trying to do with him - "a whirling melee storm of death" but still beatable.

I wanted to make each of the encounters different and memorable.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer questions,

Matt Goodall

[minneyar]

Any 8th-level party worth their XP will have watches and sleep close together, but not every party will have the right resources to keep somebody with high Perception on watch constantly; an enemy with high Stealth could still slip through when, for example, it's the cleric's turn to take watch. Fortunately, with the group that I had, the druid had the foresight to cast Grove of Respite around their campsite, and the weretiger tripped its alarm.

On top of that, our rogue had split up from the party and kept herself hidden when they were approaching the shrine, and later that night, she was sleeping up in the trees, so the weretiger had no idea what was coming when he suddenly had death rained down upon him. (my group can be really paranoid sometimes -- not that I blame them)

The encounters were all definitely very different, which I liked a lot. I think my personal favorite was the Beatific One -- my party was completely unprepared for an opponent that could disarm them. :-) (you'd think they would have planned for that, going into a temple of monks and all) The cleric summoned a bunch of lantern archons, and they ended up doing the most damage, while everybody else got their weapons stolen and ran around in circles trying not to die.

[Matt Goodall]

It's the whole, 'you can't use stealth without cover or concealment' thing. Assuming that the PCs find a clearing, the PC's campsite doesn't have 'cover or concealment' so then the weretiger can sneak up up to very close to the camp using the surrounding jungle, but not sneak into the actual camp. I wrote the tactics assuming this would be the case. The Sitraka (the weretiger) would also rather bet on an almost guaranteed entangle to stop his prey running than go for a snatch and grab and possibly let some of them get away.

Nice work from the rogue on 'death from above'. This is a module where it pays to be paranoid. :-)

I've found the Beatific One is a great fun encounter too, never had a group use lantern archons against her though.

[Ninja-elbow]

Just finished it tonight. 4 sessions total, about 4-5 hours per session.

First, our protagonists: Blue Ribbon Company mercenaries. Rogue, Ranger, Cleric and Wizard. After a 2 year mission on embassy duty in Cheliax were given 30 days leave in Niswan, as the BRC owns a "holiday manor" there. Yadda yadda, they get caught up in the Tahkur's plan to destroy the cult.

Investigation was fun. The players liked being able to use skills they spend points on and contemplate and plan for. I like giving them oppurtunities to shine in skill use.

The "messages" left by the cult actually gave the players some emotional things to react to. They were all, though scuroulous mercenaries, given impetus to strike back at the cult.

The encounter with the rakshasa was turning against them at first but one bad decision byh the rakshasa (or was it a good decision by the players??) turned the encounter in thte player's favor.

The silk mill almost got burned down. Whoops. The Garuda never left. The Niswan authorities were angered and the Thakur almost pulled them from the mission but a good diplomacy brought things back in line.

The players enjoyed the elephant guy and my horrible hindi accent I tried to use to play him. The were-tiger encounter was pretty even. The were-tiger gave out some good hits but in the end, the BRC boys took him down. That was a straight fight due to the 2 elves in the group being on watch.

The village turned kind of ugly as frustrated soldiers do what they sometimes do and execute evil cultists in front of the otehr villagers. Hmmmmnnn... diplomacy kicked in again and the villagers feared our BRC guys but understood the rough justice handed out to the cultists in Leukmagee (or whatever that village was called. My guys like to play gritty sometimes.

The mass grave encounter started off scary but hte cleric (of Gorum) popped off almost all the zombies and the ghost was handled well after some fighting. Proper burial rites were observed for the ad hoc xp. These guys know what to do with the unresting souls of the dead, being soldiers they know it is important.

They make it to the cults lair and handle hte acolytes with some good tactics.

The Beatific one was a rough fight but my guys like that. The priest was actually killed but, as my players know death can happen in my games, they were prepped for it. Gorum will get many souls via battle for the costly favor of letting one of his warriors come back and fight more.

This is were I changed it up some. The 3 BBEGs showed up and parlayed - their acolytes all slain and the Beatific one is gone too. The challenge was set fourth after 3 days of "hospitality and negotiation". Terms for a duel were set between Zaafira and the BRC warr priest. We did this duel tonight and it was an action packed fight. Our victor was the BRC war priest. Gorum was satisfied with the trade in souls and our boys were victorious. The remaing 2 cult leaders were honor bound to leave within 2 nights after which they could do as they pleased but not in Jalmeray or the continent of Garund. They'll be back but not anytime soon.

Dalavei has worked her aspect of deception though and one of the players is contemplating going evil from neutral and MAYBE starting a cell in the future. The rogue was intrigued by the aspects of this strange goddess.

Meta-wise, I honestly did not want to run an encounter with Ikrimah, that guy just had way too many layers of buffs going on. Other than that I enjoyed running this module immensely, my players, as usual, being a major part in my joy. I must add that I trust my players a lot as they trust me. We've been playing in this group for a few years and, sometimes, it seems like I don't have to push them into anything and they end up "writing" their own adventures via their actions and decisions.

Epilogue: Back in Niswan as is well for the time being. The BRC stayed at the Thakur's behest for 2 more weeks of thank yous and rewards. Our wizard even took up the offer of a wife while the Ranger asked for a trained pet tiger to take back to their homebase in Nex. They all got to 9th level and some fiar loot plus more fame. As their name grows so does their responsibilities. They just contracted to run a caravanesarai between the Nidal Gap and Kibwe in the Magwani. I am homebrewing my own "Kingmaker" campaign for them.

[Matt Goodall]

Nice report Ninja-elbow,
Glad to hear you and the group enjoyed it. Glad to hear you took your time with it. I like the gritty and 'unorthodox' methods your BRC boys employed. I’m really happy you were able to get the duel happening, the Ebon Destroyer are a Lawful Evil cult.

[Jaryn Wildmane]

I have played the module with a pathfinder society character. Overall it was entertaining. Our DM actually had the people in the mill use smart tactics and the Garuda was fairly annoying.

Once we got to the actual cults hideout was fun although Ikrimah was the only boss that really was a challenge, because of all the buffs and the way that he used the terrain around him.