Let's define Magic:
"Specialized knowledge of procedures that can be performed in a predictable and repeatable manner to accomplish amazing things."
That's untrained -- I got a clue for you -- farming is a profession (says so in the skill) -- a single rank in it and you are earning gold pieces per week.
Less snark please. I'm passing on some very good mental images with cabbages to try to keep this as tone neutral as possible.
Even if you roll a 1 for a total of a 2 (assuming you dumped your wisdom and only have a +1 bonus on the roll) you are still earning a gold piece a week (half of 2 is 1 which is the number of gold pieces a week you earn with your profession check), which is a minimum of 3 silver more a week than untrained people earn, while most weeks you'll actually earn 5 gold pieces a week on average.
A farmer is not getting gold when he does this. A farmer is getting a gold equivalent of crops when he does this. 8 wagon loads of radishes may in fact be worth multiple gold pieces but the farmer never sees said gold in bullion.
I can reduce the snark but the skill plainly says "gold pieces" not "the equivalent of this amount of gold pieces" -- it is also highly unlikely the farmer is only growing one type of crop in those 500 acres. Anyway about it by practicing his profession for a week the farmer will come out with half a profession check in gold pieces. Nothing else -- there is no reason to say the farmer does not see this gold or would not know the value of what he has/did/obtained or any other such thing. People in pathfinder do not live on less than a gold piece a year, (much less a silver a week) and the entirety of trying to force this outdated absurdity back into the game is ridiculous.
continues to fail to understand the law of clarke #3.
and someone has difficulty seperating pretend from reality. :)
I can reduce the snark but the skill plainly says "gold pieces" not "the equivalent of this amount of gold pieces" -- it is also highly unlikely the farmer is only growing one type of crop in those 500 acres. Anyway about it by practicing his profession for a week the farmer will come out with half a profession check in gold pieces. Nothing else -- there is no reason to say the farmer does not see this gold or would not know the value of what he has/did/obtained or any other such thing. People in pathfinder do not live on less than a gold piece a year, (much less a silver a week) and the entirety of trying to force this outdated absurdity back into the game is ridiculous.
In the wealth section of the phb (140) it says many goods can be traded as their equivalent cash value, as though the good was cash itself.
A few pounds of tobacco is cash in the bank.
and someone has difficulty seperating pretend from reality. :)
Let's go back in time and tour Salem during the witch trials. Don't bring your cell phone if you want to survive. :)
and someone has difficulty separating pretend from reality. :)continues to fail to understand the law of clarke #3.
Absolutely not -- I simply refuse to make indefensible statements about what is and is not science -- which ironically leads me to make the same accusation back at you (spell checked for you as well).
Science does not know everything, it certainly isn't constant (as is shown by the fact the laws of physics breakdown in a black hole ) and it has been wrong several times in the past. Which is find since science isn't dogma and can adjust its theories upon finding new facts and evidence.
Science only concerns itself with what it can measure and test in a quantifiable manner. If something can not be measured and tested then it's not covered by science... and science doesn't pretend otherwise.
I can reduce the snark but the skill plainly says "gold pieces" not "the equivalent of this amount of gold pieces"
The profession skill is written assuming that you have an adventurer using it. It is not written to describe the basis of the economy. Its for dungeons and dragons, not farmers and field hands.
Everyone cannot simply show up at a farm that they don't own, work, and be handed money. Someone has to own the farm and sell the crops to make the money.
it is also highly unlikely the farmer is only growing one type of crop in those 500 acres.
-No one said they were. It was an example.
Anyway about it by practicing his profession for a week the farmer will come out with half a profession check in gold pieces
No. After a week a farmer has a plowed field. After a month he has small plants. After three months he might have something he can sell for cash.
Nothing else -- there is no reason to say the farmer does not see this gold
Realism? A farmer doesn't grow gold. He grows crops. He eats some of them, trades some of them, puts some away for the winter and sells the rest for cash.
Deducting expenses, taxes, renting the land. He looses at least 3 gold a month unless he's living in a ditch. Now, there's no rules for child care but I don't think its a stretch to say that its kind of hard to have kids, feed them, and cloth them on and then have anything else left over, so thats another 3g per month for the wife and what.. say a gold a month per kid? That eats into the farmers earnings real fast.
poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.
or would not know the value of what he has/did/obtained or any other such thing.
No one said this either.
People in pathfinder do not live on less than a gold piece a year, (much less a silver a week)
Or this.
and the entirety of trying to force this outdated absurdity back into the game is ridiculous.
Even without the inevitable increase in magic item making supply costs, you need to get some long term use out of your capital before it becomes more cost effective than a peasant. A wand is not going to cut it. 50 uses is not even week's worth of work. Zombies on the other hand......
That's it, I'm rolling a druid/ranger garlic farmer who hates vampires.
I will be the god of the Masquerade...
So he's making about 21.5 gold pieces a month (4.3 weeks a month with 5 gold pieces on average each month). Even assuming a tax rate of half his income that still means he has enough for an average life style with a gold and a half left over. This lets him eat well at home not need to track the costs of common meals and live an average life with abnormally high taxes.
This comes to no surprise to me honestly -- after all he's an average guy -- living an average life at below average level and yet he can still afford life as a common person (common being average). He's even got his own small house or apartment! Also note that all basic NPCs (even at level 1) have a minimum of 260 gp in value for themselves not counting their living conditions. Even if we are to instead agree that they should have less than a starting adventurer and gave them the 1d6x10 gp that a monk starts with they will still have at least 10 gp to start an average life!
As to effective magic items:
Actually I rather proved that plant growth is cost effective -- a wand of it would be even more so since it would last 50 years for 500 acres or 1 year for 25,000 acres. That's a lot more than a weeks worth of work. The key is in choosing your magic items effectively -- such a a lyre of building which can give you a minimum of of an 200 men working 3 days in the space of an hour. To make this easier we can simply call it a free 100 man weeks of labor in the space of an hour, without a check once a week. With a (rather easy) DC 18 check you can get more hours out of it in the same week. A half elf at level 1 with a Cha of 15 (13 for base NPC +2 for racial) with his skill focus in perform(strings) and perform as a class skill is looking at a +9 on that check. If he can take 10 on it he can keep this going indefinitely, building a metropolis in a single day (please note I'm not assuming he can take 10 just pointing out the possibility) -- even without taking 10 he's going to get substantial work done very quickly.
Another very useful item would be a decanter of endless water -- which can easily be used to set up to provide unlimited irrigation, drinking water, and cleaning water for an entire city -- and it's priced right for that too.
Crystal balls are expensive -- but could be thought of as being akin to an early version of a telephone system for the country and its military. The abilities it provides would be worthy of investment much like the early infrastructure of the USA required substantial investment.
Now not every item will be as effective -- but there are plenty of effective uses that are going to be cost effective as well to be worth investment.
A nation that decides to purposefully increase the number of spell casters it has is going to be able to reduce the cost of that spell casting ability (simple economics there) and increase it's ability to use that magic cheaply (as most the price is simply labor cost -- which goes down in value directly proportionally to the amount of that specific type of labor is available) to increase itself in good order.
So he's making about 21.5 gold pieces a month (4.3 weeks a month with 5 gold pieces on average each month). Even assuming a tax rate of half his income that still means he has enough for an average life style with a gold and a half left over. This lets him eat well at home not need to track the costs of common meals and live an average life with abnormally high taxes.
Awesome post.
Although, depending on what he does with his crop (and what it is), he could stand to make substantially more. If he's growing grapes, and happens to be a talented brewer as well as a farmer, he'd be stinking rich at 10g per bottle.
this would be an interesting argument IF MAGIC WAS REAL! it is not nor has it ever been. it was thought to be real, but science superceded it. and impossible is a fact. some things are impossible. the mathematics of physics and general relativity shows this. as does a scientific argument. whereas the existance of god cannot be DISPROVED, many other things can be proven one way or another. such as it is not possible for a person to fly without the use of technology. magic breaks the rules of general relativity as it can create something out of nothing. because it breaks such a basic accord of the theory, the entire thing at that point breaks down and the state of existence as we know it has no bearing anymore. it is impossible to create something out of nothing. according to magic in the game you can do that. evocation magic is just that.
thats the point of magic, its not scientific. to attempt to qualify it as such is to lose sight of what it is and what its for. the game is NOT realistic. no person can fall 200 feet, get up and keep fighting after taking 20 arrows to the gut. in Pathfinder/D&D you can. its a FANTASY, ie a MAKE BELEIVE world.
the point on our theories being well understood is that the equations that explain the laws of physics, when tested KEEP PROVING CORRECT. thats a good understanding
The trouble with this statement, about magic not being real, and science succeeding it, is that it's incorrect. Science grew out of magical tradition, especially the first branch, which is known as natural philosophy.
I have a large collection of occult books, reproductions of old medieval grimoires and so forth. Someone once challenged me to take a spell out of any of them and prove to him that magic worked.
I asked if I could brew up a medieval witch's sleeping potion which he could drink and see if it put him to sleep.
He then started going on about superstitious old women and the "placebo effect" until I mentioned that one of the main ingredient's in the witch's potion was "poppy gum" which he was smart enough to realize translated to "opium" and then objected "That's not magic! That's science!"
The trouble is, a whole lot of magic is like that.
Other bits of magic are based on scientific theories that have since been disproven, or metaphysical theories which cannot be proven or disproven but still follow their own consistent internal logic.
Saying that teleportation is impossible because of X, Y, and Z bits of relevant physics is incorrect anyway because science is always finding new ways around old problems.
Consider, for example, aluminum. When first refined, it took an incredibly costly chemical process to make from the raw ore. The tip of the Washington monument was made out of this precious modern metal. Mad Ludwig of Bavaria had a helmet made of the new wonder metal at ruinous expense.
Then someone figured out a cheaper method to make it. Now we use it for beer cans.
For teleportation, we postulate some metaphysical means to accomplish this end-run around various laws of physics, then apply this. We assume the wizards can explain how this is accomplished the same way as we assume physicists can explain quantum theory.
We violate the laws of physics every day in the game anyway. Dragons violate the square-cube law every time they fly. So do giant spiders which should reasonably collapse of their mass. Druids violate the conservation of mass when the shift into the form of a tree shrew.
Also note that all basic NPCs (even at level 1) have a minimum of 260 gp in value for themselves not counting their living conditions.
-These are for pc classes. They are by definition, special.
Even if we are to instead agree that they should have less than a starting adventurer and gave them the 1d6x10 gp that a monk starts with they will still have at least 10 gp to start an average life!
Even a starting adventurer doesn't start with that much cash. They start with that much stuff: usually saved up over a lifetime.
As to effective magic items:
Actually I rather proved that plant growth is cost effective -- a wand of it would be even more so since it would last 50 years for 500 acres or 1 year for 25,000 acres.
Plant growth it. The old 2.0 druids handbook assumed it was cast as part of a spring festival every year if the town had a friendly druid.
Also keep in mind that druids may not be supportive of casting a spell thats going to lead to population growth. Humans aren't the easiest critters when you consdier their ecological footprint.
To make this easier we can simply call it a free 100 man weeks of labor in the space of an hour, without a check once a week. With a (rather easy) DC 18 check you can get more hours out of it in the same week. A half elf at level 1 with a Cha of 15 (13 for base NPC +2 for racial) with his skill focus in perform(strings) and perform as a class skill is looking at a +9 on that check. If he can take 10 on it he can keep this going indefinitely, building a metropolis in a single day
Until the unemployed masons guild local 103 introduces the half elf to the business end of a shovel, steals the lyre and mixes him in with the cement.
I think you're underestimating the amount of mantime for a metropolis.
Another very useful item would be a decanter of endless water -- which can easily be used to set up to provide unlimited irrigation, drinking water, and cleaning water for an entire city -- and it's priced right for that too.
“Geyser” produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round.
30 gallons/6 seconds * 60 seconds/min * 60 min/hour * 24 hours /day
432,000 gallons/day.
The Pont du Gard could transport up to 20,000 cubic meters — nearly 6 million gallons and the combined aqueducts of the city of Rome supplied around 1 million cubic meters (300 million gallons) a day — a day,-wiki
Aquaduct wins if you've got the terrain for it.
As a desert oasis though it would be invaluable, or you could buy 10 of the things.
Now for the military you're right. Cost considerations kind of go out the window when the alternative is a better equipped army showing up and killing you.
Crystal balls, dragon riders, and adventurer units should be the norm. A battlefield should look more like a civil war/ww1 trench warfare where everyone is stuck where they are behind whatever protections they have afraid to move than a medieval battlefield where everyone is out in the open.
A nation that decides to purposefully increase the number of spell casters it has is going to be able to reduce the cost of that spell casting ability (simple economics there) and increase it's ability to use that magic cheaply (as most the price is simply labor cost -- which goes down in value directly proportionally to the amount of that specific type of labor is available) to increase itself in good order.
RIght, but 1) wants etc won't get any cheaper and 2) each magic user you train is another potential nutjob who can either take over your kingdom or reign fiery death down on your helpless peasants from above.
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The key is in choosing your magic items effectively -- such a a lyre of building which can give you a minimum of of an 200 men working 3 days in the space of an hour.Not to be confused with the Liar of Building - which creates 15 men who stand around watching one man work and which claims to do 600 man hours of work per hour, but, actually, will probably take three tims that.
That's actually the Liar of Bilking.
Aren't cursed items wonderful?
Also note that all basic NPCs (even at level 1) have a minimum of 260 gp in value for themselves not counting their living conditions.-These are for pc classes. They are by definition, special.
Then why does it specifically state that is the basic NPC wealth by level?
Yes basic NPC wealth by level for level 1 is 260 gp. It has nothing to do with PC classes and applies specifically to those that are not special -- the average person NPC that has the baseline 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 statline. Read pages 450~454 they specifically state you are wrong.
As to the rest of your hubalo -- I would remind you that with technology this happened too... but that didn't stop technology. Magic is hardly that much different (dregs up Clarke's third law again). The problem economics wins this one out on the side of magic. Magic isn't expensive -- it's rather cheap in fact, the problem is solely the lack of casters. One key supposition was that such a land would be specifically choosing to train more mages and magic users, which means those masons probably aren't simple experts that can only wield a chisiel -- they are probably level x mages of some flavor and now have better things to do with their time.
Also just because the half elf made the town doesn't mean all the work is done: It does have to be maintained, the roads were probably left to other means of being created (I suggest horizontal walls of stone honestly) and there is always room for added decoration on the stone buildings. Quite frankly that is probably what I would do -- simply have him get the place up and spartan with room for artisans to waste time doing work that doesn't need done. Or we could put those men to better use paving roads or building the outlying buildings and farms that are too far from a population center to be efficiently built with the lyre.
Even an intelligence 13 'common' stat NPC can make a fine wizard -- he can make it up to 5th level and still be able to cast every spell he can find. Granted the DCs aren't going to be much if he's in combat -- but we are talking a civilian corps of magineers.
And honestly it's happened and worked in most campaign settings already -- Galorian had Thassilon, Azlanti, and the electric magical flying castles for examples. Geb is a continuing example using undead. Other examples exist in forgotten realms, and even dark sun (if they can manage it there it can be done anywhere).
Now granted these usually fall -- but only artificially after all people think they 'must' fall in order for the PCs to have a world to be heroic in.
**************************
Now again if you absolutely insist on bringing up what doesn't actually exist in this form of the game sure you can force it to its knees -- but I must remind you this isn't second edition.
And quite frankly while second edition was fun it is also dead what we are playing is pathfinder -- and the old hang ups really don't apply like they use to.
And what generally happens to these Magic rich kingdoms with super stuff?
The same stuff that happens to kingdoms that are not magic rich. In fact the same thing that happens to the people that are living 'savage and barbarically" in the jungle or the Shanti... or in fact everyone. Lets not say it's only the magic rich this happens to because it happens to everyone.
It's like saying, "Oh the USA is going to fall because it's an empire and all empires fall" -- it assigns the wrong cause to the fall and assumes that if the USA wasn't an empire that it wouldn't fall. Which is incorrect civilizations fall all the time regardless of if they are an empire or not.
AKA $%^! happens.
Odd as it sounds the best explination I heard for this came from Elminster and I'm paraphrasing below. All fantasy realms seem to have a god/goddess of magic, so this is pretty universal.
"Magic is at the will of a goddess (mystra in this case). You can learn all the gestures and words of power you like, but if she doesn't wish it to work it won't. Magic is more than formula, it is the will of the great lady."
In other words magic has a will and doen't follow the rules of the natural world. It follows whatever rules/guidelines the relevant diety wants it to.
Magic and science are mutually exclusive, though in fantasy the two have the potential for synergy.
Also note that all basic NPCs (even at level 1) have a minimum of 260 gp in value for themselves not counting their living conditions.-These are for pc classes. They are by definition, special.
Even if we are to instead agree that they should have less than a starting adventurer and gave them the 1d6x10 gp that a monk starts with they will still have at least 10 gp to start an average life!Even a starting adventurer doesn't start with that much cash. They start with that much stuff: usually saved up over a lifetime.
As to effective magic items:
Actually I rather proved that plant growth is cost effective -- a wand of it would be even more so since it would last 50 years for 500 acres or 1 year for 25,000 acres.Plant growth it. The old 2.0 druids handbook assumed it was cast as part of a spring festival every year if the town had a friendly druid.
Also keep in mind that druids may not be supportive of casting a spell thats going to lead to population growth. Humans aren't the easiest critters when you consdier their ecological footprint.
To make this easier we can simply call it a free 100 man weeks of labor in the space of an hour, without a check once a week. With a (rather easy) DC 18 check you can get more hours out of it in the same week. A half elf at level 1 with a Cha of 15 (13 for base NPC +2 for racial) with his skill focus in perform(strings) and perform as a class skill is looking at a +9 on that check. If he can take 10 on it he can keep this going indefinitely, building a metropolis in a single day
Until the unemployed masons guild local 103 introduces the half elf to the business end of a shovel, steals the lyre and mixes him in with the cement.
I think you're underestimating the amount of mantime for a metropolis.
Another very useful item would be a decanter of endless water -- which can easily be used to set up to provide unlimited irrigation, drinking water, and cleaning water for an...
this is a confused argument, magic as it is in the GAME is MAGIC not science. my point about science is that its mathematical and is by all means correct. if you can prove otherwise to me please do so. but id go ahead and say you cant unless you are arguing under the pretense of religion.
the things you talk about are scientific, under the name of magic. in the game there is a leap being taken, what if there was no science behind it(largely because there is no science to back up most spells in the game).I think perhaps the point i make is being lost here to people attempting to legitimize the game in a real world manner. ITS NOT REAL. if you think you can replicate the things goin on in the game you are wrong and i will ignore you form here on out. the rules in the game are designed to immitate the real world, but that begins to break down pretty quickly. ESPECIALLY with magic involved. as i mentioned earlier, yes at one point what was seen as magic eventually turned into science, but not all of it. As in the ame SOME of the rules and SOME spells sort of translate to real world science, if you take out the in game means to create them. but many of them simply do not. and because some dont follow the rules, that means the rules are being BROKEN. if a scientific rule is broken, it is wrong. for example if suddenly someone was able to create energy using only "M" intead of "M squared" the rule would be wrong, energy would no longer be E=mc2. Magic in game does that. NOT IN REAL LIFE. IN REAL LIFE THERE IS NO SUCH THING. because science of the the real world breaks down in the game (and by science i mean the tangibles, the mathematically proven and double proven constants) the game therefor uses a DIFFERENT set of scientific rules. rules that allow for the existance of magic.
Yes basic NPC wealth by level for level 1 is 260 gp. It has nothing to do with PC classes and applies specifically to those that are not special -- the average person NPC that has the baseline 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 statline. Read pages 450~454 they specifically state you are wrong.
No, it specifically states that you, AGAIN, missed what someone actually said and are flailing at a strawman. I said PC CLASS. Not PC.
Note that these values are approximate and based on the values for a campaign using the medium experience progression and a normal treasure allotment.
This is for adventurer cash loads... not Old MacDonald the 6th level farmer. The game again assumes you're going to adventure with or attack the NPC, not use it to model the economy (not that you could do worse than the fed...)
As to the rest of your hubalo -- I would remind you that with technology this happened too... but that didn't stop technology. Magic is hardly that much different (dregs up Clarke's third law again.
There's an enormous difference. It takes a lot of people a lot of time to design and build a crane. The first cranes are usually inoperative,or take man power to work anyway. Its slow and gradual. It only takes one wizard two weeks? to make a lyre of building.
The problem economics wins this one out on the side of magic. Magic isn't expensive -- it's rather cheap in fact, the problem is solely the lack of casters. One key supposition was that such a land would be specifically choosing to train more mages and magic users, which means those masons probably aren't simple experts that can only wield a chisiel -- they are probably level x mages of some flavor and now have better things to do with their time.
magic items cost a lot of money no matter what you do. You can have all the casters in the world but they're not going to make wands at below cost.
Even an intelligence 13 'common' stat NPC can make a fine wizard -- he can make it up to 5th level and still be able to cast every spell he can find. Granted the DCs aren't going to be much if he's in combat -- but we are talking a civilian corps of magineers.
Which is kind of like asking why doesn't everyone have a PHD?
And honestly it's happened and worked in most campaign settings already -- Galorian had Thassilon, Azlanti, and the electric magical flying castles for examples. Geb is a continuing example using undead. Other examples exist in forgotten realms, and even dark sun (if they can manage it there it can be done anywhere).
ANd our own modern world, powered by easily obtained unobtainium, with no side effects what so ever...
Now granted these usually fall -- but only artificially after all people think they 'must' fall in order for the PCs to have a world to be heroic in.
And thats what you get for fighting the biggest power of all: story.
Odd as it sounds the best explination I heard for this came from Elminster and I'm paraphrasing below. All fantasy realms seem to have a god/goddess of magic, so this is pretty universal.
"Magic is at the will of a goddess (mystra in this case). You can learn all the gestures and words of power you like, but if she doesn't wish it to work it won't. Magic is more than formula, it is the will of the great lady."
In other words magic has a will and doen't follow the rules of the natural world. It follows whatever rules/guidelines the relevant diety wants it to.
Magic and science are mutually exclusive, though in fantasy the two have the potential for synergy.
if magic does not follow the rules then the rules are way too incomplete and therefor useless. its a different set of rules for the game.
Magic doesn't make something out of nothing. It converts energy into matter or energy into another form of energy. We don't know if it is possible yet, or impossible. And the more we learn about quantum physics, the less we actually know about it.
remember the basic eqation of einstein e=mc2. if magic has this kind of energy you suggest, where is its mass, or its velocity(both would have to be significant as its velocity is limited(faster than light is not possible as the speed of light is the only real constant in space time)? magic is pulled out of thin air using an energy that does not follow our physics.
Magic must be kept in the realm of fiction as it is in the game. IN the realm of fiction science need not apply. in fact, as i posited earlier, science can be different. if youd like in your game for science to exist in addition to magic, go for it. i like to go full out, so nothing can be explained(or argued) with real world science. the game world exists as people thought the world existed 700ish years ago. this makes the existance of magic more plausible and to that point the rules in the game more fun.
scientific IN GAME. that does not mean or have any relation to real world science.
Again, i am only saying that the physics in game do not follow the physics of the real world, and while similar, are not the same. and because they are not the same, the conclusions brought from OUR physics do not nessecerily apply in the game.
If magic in game conforms to the scientific method (hypothesis > data > experimentation) then by definition it is science regardless of what it appears to be. Is this the formula for spell research? Aren't spells merely experiments?
I think you guys are comparing apples to different colored apples.
and someone has difficulty seperating pretend from reality. :)continues to fail to understand the law of clarke #3.
If you fully understood the implications of the Standard Model or the Many-Worlds Interpretation of quantum field theory you would see that the only difference in practice is a matter of statistics and reference frame.
There already IS a world where saying vlaadimvorak and making devil horns with your thumb pushed through the middle always seems to result in something exploding into a fireball. But for every world where 'magical' coincidences occur regularly enough to be mistaken for a physical law, there is a number of worlds they don't that is so staggeringly large that a computer the size of the Earth running continuously for thirteen billion years would be less than one thousandth of one percent finished calculating it.
Actually you don't understand Many Worlds that well. It says that all POSSIBILITIES are expressed that worlds divide every time a decision is made. Something that's not a possibility is not going to be one of the Many Worlds. Personally I think the Many Worlds model is flawed and not something to be taken literally. I've actually been working on an inverse of the Many Worlds theory which I call the Kinetic Sculpture Universe... but that's something for another venue.
Incorrect.
'Decision' implies agency, which is an illusion.
Also, it entirely is possible, since conservation of mass and energy derive from Gauge Theory, and allow exceptions.
Further to clarify, it is not his words or gestures that cause the fireball, but in a worldline where one always precedes the other, how is he to know? Many Worlds allows corner cases; demands them, in fact. And the only other interpretations derive from the even more problematic and quasi-mystical Copenhagen interpretation, from which the dead-alive Schrodinger's cat paradox springs.
I could lecture you on the derivation of the Majorana and Dirac equations from Lorentz invariance, but that would likely jack my own thread. Let me just say (jestingly) in closing:
If magic in game conforms to the scientific method (hypothesis > data > experimentation) then by definition it is science regardless of what it appears to be. Is this the formula for spell research? Aren't spells merely experiments?
I think you guys are comparing apples to different colored apples.
yes it is. but it does NOT follow our physics nessecerily. which is my point. while in the game the characters are being scientific, theyre not being so in accordance to the real world. so the discoveries that are found in game have absolutely no relation in the real world.
so yes we are comparing apples to apples.
Actually you don't understand Many Worlds that well. It says that all POSSIBILITIES are expressed that worlds divide every time a decision is made. Something that's not a possibility is not going to be one of the Many Worlds. Personally I think the Many Worlds model is flawed and not something to be taken literally. I've actually been working on an inverse of the Many Worlds theory which I call the Kinetic Sculpture Universe... but that's something for another venue.Incorrect.
'Decision' implies agency, which is an illusion.
Also, it entirely is possible, since conservation of mass and energy derive from Gauge Theory, and allow exceptions.
Further to clarify, it is not his words or gestures that cause the fireball, but in a worldline where one always precedes the other, how is he to know? Many Worlds allows corner cases; demands them, in fact. And the only other interpretations derive from the even more problematic and quasi-mystical Copenhagen interpretation, from which the dead-alive Schrodinger's cat paradox springs.
I could lecture you on the derivation of the Majorana and Dirac equations from Lorentz invariance, but that would likely jack my own thread. Let me just say (jestingly) in closing:
yuo are misinterpreting the multiworlds model. that states that the in the limitless worlds all possibilities according to the universal laws of physics, which are constant, are and will be played out. if those laws are broken even in one of the worlds they are false and the mathematics that have been done were mistaken. the possibility must be there. the laws of physics must support the possiblity. if they dont they are incorrect and the entire idea of the multi world model would be falsified as the mathematics that backed them were incorrect.
But not everyone falls the same way. Barbarian tribes typically get conquered militarily or corrupted by trade. Magic rich civilisations tend to explode or fall from divine action, or curse themselves to oblivion. difference matters.
Of course skyfall didn't affect anyone but the Thassolians, and in Dragonlance the same can be said of their meteorite disaster.
And honestly once you are conquered and wiped out I don't really think it matters how it happens -- wiped out is wiped out no matter the source. Magical curse or conquerors either way you are gone.
Also magical nastiness still happens to 'not magic rich' cultures too -- consider the Eye of Abendego. Yes they had some mages but were not especially known for it -- or the world wound which wasn't caused by a magical kingdom. The death of Aroden for example happened in a low magic (so to speak) time and cost many non-magical empires dearly.
The Shory also show us that a magical kingdom can simply decline without blowing up the world or wiping itself out -- simply petering out like any other civilization.
So again simply being a magical kingdom does not cause automatic horrible magical catastrophe and not being a magical kingdom doesn't offer some sort of protection from such happenings either.
I stand by my statement -- "The same thing that happens to everyone else."
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yuo are misinterpreting the multiworlds model. that states that the in the limitless worlds all possibilities according to the universal laws of physics, which are constant, are and will be played out. if those laws are broken even in one of the worlds they are false and the mathematics that have been done were mistaken. the possibility must be there. the laws of physics must support the possiblity. if they dont they are incorrect and the entire idea of the multi world model would be falsified as the mathematics that backed them were incorrect
Nowhere does it say that conservation of mass/energy is absolute and inviolable. It holds generally up to a limit that is determined by probability. It is violated routinely and near-infinitely by more vacuated quanta than I could possibly compute or even list.
The energy for the fireball wouldn't even need to come from nothing. The ground state of our universe is multiple integer multiples at variance from zero. An increase in energy at one point could be offset by a decrease in any other location, satisfying Gauge Invariance and rendering the math perfectly legitimate.
The energy for the fireball wouldn't even need to come from nothing. The ground state of our universe is multiple integer multiples at variance from zero. An increase in energy at one point could be offset by a decrease in any other location,
Ahah... that explains all these sudden drafts that old people feel.
Now if we could figure out why they're attracted to old people...
The energy for the fireball wouldn't even need to come from nothing. The ground state of our universe is multiple integer multiples at variance from zero. An increase in energy at one point could be offset by a decrease in any other location,Ahah... that explains all these sudden drafts that old people feel.
Now if we could figure out why they're attracted to old people...
Alas, the math is less clear on that.
*wondewrs whether in all Physics books shouldn't be written "following things apply AS FAR AS OUR KNOWLEDGE GOES"
A farmer restricted to midieval means is not going to be able to manage 500 acres. most such farms were very small about 1-2 acres maximum as we're talking not much beyond subsistence level. Also remember that the economy is skewed all out of proportion because Gygax decided that players would rather hear the sounds of gold coins instead of silver. Trying to approximate a real world economy simply does not work.As Gygax explained it the economy that Players see is modeled on that of "Gold Rush" boomtowns where gold rush miners wound up paying for necessities with the gold they dug or panned up. Prices were extremely jacked up compared to what was the normal economy at the time. The prices you see in the handbook list are designed as gold sinks. Nothing more or less.
Except we aren't playing Gygax's game anymore. Indeed for everything he did right, he's done plenty of damage to the game too with his inconsistent logic when it comes to game economics -- and unwillingness to allow anything else in.
Indeed the very idea that somehow people simply 'know' that you are an adventurer and therefore must pay the 'gold rush' prices is absurd. Especially if you are playing one of the very common "local heroes" sort of campaigns where you rise for the ranks of the 'average' folk.
Galorian isn't that sort of world -- adventurers are not rare -- their so common in fact that there are at least two (and probably many more) world spanning guilds of them where even in the guilds they actively compete against each other for acclaim and even rule entire city-states if not nations.
We've left Greyhawk behind -- this isn't Gygax's world anymore and quite simply his views don't fit what is provided in the rules.
its not as far as our knowledge lets us go. its FOR ALL THINGS. if you want around the rules and laws of physics you have to work within their constraints. there is no variance in this. energy ALWAYS equals mass multiplied by velocity squared. to conjure up a monster would not just use some massless energy occupying absolutley no space. you must have the energy to allow for this.
and i feel at this point it must be said, magic isnt real. its pretend. that is a fact. if you can prove me wrong ill back off, but you cant. its not real.
and if youd like mathematics books to be written as 1+1 is 2 as far as our knowledge goes, youll sound like the crazy anti-evolution people. AND even then if you wanted to argue that evolution doesnt have ample evidence for you, fine. PHYSICS IS MATHEMATIC. as soon as you allow for variances in a constant of mathematics, it falls apart and stops being true because of the reliance that one equation has on the next and so on. probablity on the eqaution of the makeup of energy has no place. it IS made up of that. always. energy is never just velocity or just mass, both are needed.
Magic cannot exist according to the LAWS set forth by 100s, even 1000s of GENIUSes attempting to dipsrpove one another. Magic, and golarion dont exist. thats fine. they dont need to for us to play a game of pretend with them in it. the world of D&D /pathfinder is make believe, and its rules on MANY levels dont make sense in a real world stand point. THATS OK. they dont need to. In the game we can teleport and have no spacetime ramifications. we can create fire without fuel, or make light with a snap of our fingers without anything to keep it going except this mysterious stuff called magic. this is all well and good. but it cant happen in real life.(if you argue this point with TECHNOLOGY, you are wrong).
energy ALWAYS equals mass multiplied by velocity squared.
Actually -- no it doesn't Einstein was close -- but he wasn't quite right. There are several points when E=MC^2 doesn't hold up -- indeed the equation itself has problems once you start getting into the deeper end of physics and goes absolutely spastic once you introduce quantum physics.
A little help here.
energy ALWAYS equals mass multiplied by velocity squared.Actually -- no it doesn't Einstein was close -- but he wasn't quite right. There are several points when E=MC^2 doesn't hold up -- indeed the equation itself has problems once you start getting into the deeper end of physics and goes absolutely spastic once you introduce quantum physics.
A little help here.
so how does that apply to a wizard making a fireball? hes not shooting protons.
so how does that apply to a wizard making a fireball? hes not shooting protons.
Actually he very well could. As that article points out it's not a point of mass, matter or energy -- it's an issue of space vectors, gravity and other things interacting.
Einstein's theory is predicated on the idea that the movement mass and energy is relative to your own mass movement and energy -- if my own set of values of those are different from your set of values for those we will perceive the event differently.
It's really simply an physics based explanation for why objects in a car with you seem to not be moving, or the car coming from the other direction seems to approach faster than it retreats after passing you.
And here's the rub -- this only really holds while we are still taking about relative space (i.e. what we see) -- not what is actually happening -- we are literally living in plato's cave.
As we have started setting up a third person perspective with independent measuring sticks (which is what much of science in the forms of physics and chemistry have been doing all these years without realizing it until recently) we are beginning to actually realize there are alternate dimensions out there. All that science fiction talk about time travel is actually possible -- indeed time itself could very well be an illusion, even as we currently perceive it this dimension as we understand it could simultaneously be in the middle of being created, destroyed and living all at the same time in the same area.
Those are becoming hard scientific fact... indeed area as we understand it doesn't quite exist as we physically interact with it from our perception.
Add to this that we don't actually know or understand the properties of all the subatomic particles we have just started being able to find or of dark matter, dark energy or the recently theorized third alternate to matter/energy and dark matter/energy.
We have however stopped light -- not like "wall stops light" but in "suspended animation of a light particle in the same spot" for more than a second now -- for physics that's the equivalent of stopping time. We've also made a structure (in california) the size of a human hair (very huge on the scale we are talking about) that obeys and observes the laws of quantum physics instead of 'normal' physics. It is literally a hair from the back of Schrodinger's cat -- there and not there at the same time without any predictability that we can establish yet.
The fun part? We are just starting too. Humanity is this close to actually playing with time/space itself -- and we don't know what all is possible once we start doing that.
Like I said I fully intend to get a grasp on reality -- and when I do we'll see how I can bend it. Science is literally almost there.