Gloom wrote: Rathendar wrote: Gloom wrote: 3) Secret Techniques.. a system that functions vastly different then current creation rules, with the same top end.. almost all of the benefits, with a lot less of the difficulties. I don't see this as balanced within the current system even remotely. The concept is fine, it's the mechanics that need work. Yet the only difference between #1 and #3 is the descriptive wording. That's not "vastly different", it's wrapper.
I am getting the impression that sundering/disjunctioning is commonplace in the games you run/play in, and i will say that in that type of thing, i suppose it would gut reaction as more powerful but i really don't see it as being actually so. It's not the wording nor "wrapper" that is an issue, I don't have a problem with the idea of a monk training special techniques to make themselves stronger, nor do I have a problem with the concept of a gearless monk. I have a problem with the mechanical decisions that were listed previously on the thread. And while it may not be commonplace to have Disjunction in a game, during the time it happens why should it affect anyone else more then it would affect the Monk?
1) Fighter with +5 Natural Armor Amulet
2) Rogue with +5 Natural Armor Amulet
3) Monk with +5 Natural Armor Secret Technique
1) Loses the item
2) Loses the item
3) Item Suppressed as per Dispel Magic for a couple rounds..
That just isn't right.
And that is only one of the mechanical flaws that was referred to. You already agreed that it makes no sense for a technique to be disjoined.
Only gear should be disjoined.
But we're talking about somebody being gearless.
You are focused on techniques operating the same as magic items. Is there any part of you that acknowledges that it's not whether techniques have the same pros and cons as magic items that is important? Is there any part of you that acknowledges that techniques can have very different pros and cons from magic items and still be balanced with them?
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LilithsThrall wrote:
You already agreed that it makes no sense for a technique to be disjoined.
Only gear should be disjoined.
But we're talking about somebody being gearless.
You are focused on techniques operating the same as magic items. Is there any part of you that acknowledges that it's not whether techniques have the same pros and cons as magic items that is important? Is there any part of you that acknowledges that techniques can have very different pros and cons from magic items and still...
As long as the pro's and con's follow the same progressive curve throughout the levels, then I can see it as balanced. If disjunction does not work on them, then there needs to be another level appropriate spell that does.
If at high levels the pros and cons are at extremely different scales, then it means they are not balanced.
The only exception to this, is if they each have pros that equally outweigh their cons.. however that is extremely difficult to measure and I wouldn't even attempt it.
Gloom wrote: If disjunction does not work on them, then there needs to be another level appropriate spell that does. That has nothing to do with balance. What has to do with balance is "what is the impact of not being affected by disjunction - really?" and then creating a con that equals it.
In the games I've played in, the impact of not being affected by disjunction is incredibly small - minute, even. Because disjunction just isn't all that commonly cast.
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LilithsThrall wrote: Gloom wrote: If disjunction does not work on them, then there needs to be another level appropriate spell that does. That has nothing to do with balance. What has to do with balance is "what is the impact of not being affected by disjunction - really?" and then creating a con that equals it.
In the games I've played in, the impact of not being affected by disjunction is incredibly small - minute, even. Because disjunction just isn't all that commonly cast.
I still don't see a reason to ignore a system that works. Especially if all you're looking to accomplish is flavor text.
Okay I like the idea and while several other people have given good sugestions I wuld give different ones.
First, if being slot less increases the cost by 200% and being completely unique is a discount of about 200% then that balances out. But I wouldn't give a discount for learning a technique from someone because what works for one person won't work for another.
Second, the technique can't be traded out ever. Okay, so one you know it it is yours forever. At the same time it can never be stolen, sundered or broken. Well if you want to give a discount for learning the technique then yes it can be stolen. A dishonest monk can spy on a master using a particular technique and steal the secrets of the technique. The technique can be sundered if you lose a body part, you have to learn to use it without the body part by "crafting" a new one paying 50% of the original price (you just lost a body part, you have more important things to worry about.) For can't be broken, well if you break something then you can't use the technique till the broken bone is healed. So if you keep the discount for being taught, you should get rid of the fact that the technique can't be stolen. (as I would suggest)
Third, anything that would make any prepared caster forget a spell for the day should make the monk lose the technique permanently, disjunction, no but any sort of mind effecting spell that can make someone forget something would be really dangerous.
Fourth, Having Secret technique a free feat for all monks it far more dangerous than anyone realises, either that or I missed something, all it would take is for someone to be an equipment monk to throw the entire thing out of whack. Instead, it would work very well as a feat with the prerequisite of UM VOP and ki pool.
Finally, and this is one thing I think would bring everything together. make it so that all techniques are supernatural and duration sustained, so you can't use two techniques at once. If you want a bonus to wis and energy damage at the same time, too bad. Unless you create a technique that gives both at the same time. But this stipulation might make the cost of inventing techniques drop a bit.
Those are my suggestions, I hope everyone has a nice day.
Gloom wrote: I still don't see a reason to ignore a system that works. Especially if all you're looking to accomplish is flavor text. Then a whole lot of people disagree with you. That's fine. We have the right to do that. Now how about if you stop cluttering up this thrad so that I can focus on _constructive_ criticism?
LilithsThrall wrote: Gloom wrote: I still don't see a reason to ignore a system that works. Especially if all you're looking to accomplish is flavor text. Then a whole lot of people disagree with you. That's fine. We have the right to do that. Now how about if you stop cluttering up this thrad so that I can focus on _constructive_ criticism? Pointing out balance issues is constructive criticism. It appears you don't want that though. Any attempt to discuss balance has been met with hostility. I now withdraw from the thread, as it's obvious you don't want help, you only want people to agree with you and make suggestions that further your (in my opinion very broken and overpowered) design. Good luck with it.
zombiemaster86 wrote: Okay I like the idea and while several other people have given good sugestions I wuld give different ones.
First, if being slot less increases the cost by 200% and being completely unique is a discount of about 200% then that balances out. But I wouldn't give a discount for learning a technique from someone because what works for one person won't work for another.
Second, the technique can't be traded out ever. Okay, so one you know it it is yours forever. At the same time it can never be stolen, sundered or broken. Well if you want to give a discount for learning the technique then yes it can be stolen. A dishonest monk can spy on a master using a particular technique and steal the secrets of the technique. The technique can be sundered if you lose a body part, you have to learn to use it without the body part by "crafting" a new one paying 50% of the original price (you just lost a body part, you have more important things to worry about.) For can't be broken, well if you break something then you can't use the technique till the broken bone is healed. So if you keep the discount for being taught, you should get rid of the fact that the technique can't be stolen. (as I would suggest)
Third, anything that would make any prepared caster forget a spell for the day should make the monk lose the technique permanently, disjunction, no but any sort of mind effecting spell that can make someone forget something would be really dangerous.
Fourth, Having Secret technique a free feat for all monks it far more dangerous than anyone realises, either that or I missed something, all it would take is for someone to be an equipment monk to throw the entire thing out of whack. Instead, it would work very well as a feat with the prerequisite of UM VOP and ki pool.
Finally, and this is one thing I think would bring everything together. make it so that all techniques are supernatural and duration sustained, so you can't use two techniques at once. If you want a bonus to wis and energy damage at the same time, too...
Thanks, Zombiemaster
Below are my comments
1.) There is no discount for learning the technique from someone
I originally intended for there to be, but it just didn't come together
2.)The problem with the concept of stealing is that it implies that the monk who originally had the technique no longer has it. Pathfinder has no concept of intellectual property theft. Applying the "sundered" condition when a body part has been severed seem reasonable. I know of no game mechanic currently representing broken bones.
3.) While I don't think that a character having access to magic items and techniques is a problem (due to stacking rules and wealth as a scarce resource), I see no reason making VoP a prereq would be a problem - though I'd have to adjust to make techniques discoverable much sooner. That readjustment might be enough of a headache that I'll just not impose the VoP prereq.
mdt wrote: LilithsThrall wrote: Gloom wrote: I still don't see a reason to ignore a system that works. Especially if all you're looking to accomplish is flavor text. Then a whole lot of people disagree with you. That's fine. We have the right to do that. Now how about if you stop cluttering up this thrad so that I can focus on _constructive_ criticism? Pointing out balance issues is constructive criticism. It appears you don't want that though. Any attempt to discuss balance has been met with hostility. I now withdraw from the thread, as it's obvious you don't want help, you only want people to agree with you and make suggestions that further your (in my opinion very broken and overpowered) design. Good luck with it. Some people believe that resistance to changing the flavor of the feature is resistance to balance. (for example, that resistance to making the feature more like magic items when the goal is to get away from magic items is resistance to balance)
I don't know how to respond to that other than to just show them the door out.
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When you're talking about getting rid of magic items, and becoming gearless then do away with the items and the restrictions that it places on you. Do not however throw away the balanced system that accompanies it. If you feel that magic items are not properly balanced, then bring up that fact. If all you're after is flavor and functionality, then simply change the flavor and functionality to fit your purposes. Do not destroy the balance that goes along with the system.
I agree with mdt, you seem to be resistant to any form of constructive criticism other then blankly agreeing with you or tossing out other forms of broken suggestions. Just because I'm suggesting something with similar balance to the old system, don't hate.
Gloom wrote: Do not destroy the balance that goes along with the system.
I'm trying not to destroy the balance that comes with magic items, but that doesn't mean that I have to use the magic items system with a thin veneer of handwavium. An alternative system which is nothing like the magic item system can be balanced with it.
On the other hand, there are all kinds of reasons why the type of system I'm trying to make can never be just the magic items system with a thin veneer of handwavium. It makes no sense for the techniques to be able to be stolen (for the character to lose access to the technique because somebody got it through the use of sneak, sleight of hand, etc.), for someone to be able to sell the technique or give the technique away, that somebody might be able to buy the technique long before they qualify to discover it on their own or discover it in loot, that disjunction might work on the technique (because it's not an object and while an alternative spell might do the same effect as disjunction, an enemy would have to identify the technique as a technique and have that alternative spell memorized (taking up a scarce high level spell slot) and then would have to choose whether to cast disjunction first - so as to affect every other party member's items first or that other spell (which would give the technique character an extra round to act), and there would have to be a sensible 9th level spell available to do this with, and if their techniques were subject to disjunction, they couldn't just go to the local magic mart to buy more gear like everyone else in their party, they'd have to relearn their techniques from scratch - which could take over a year to do, and on and on and on and on), and a whole long list of other problems.
Any one of these problems should be sufficient to throw up a red flag with regards to just slapping a thin veneer on magic items. As I've said repeatedly, throwing a thin veneer on magic items won't work. But all you seem to want to do is take up my time by arguing.
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