Dragon Disciple Advice


Advice


After trying a couple times, I think I'll just keep this short. I'm going to be playing in a game and want to play an arcane caster that does more than cast spells. I'm looking over Summoner and Magus/Dragon Disciple for an arcane/melee hybrid.

So the basic question is: Is it worth it to go with a sorceror/dragon disciple over a magus?

Things to consider:

We're rolling for stats, so having enough STR and DEX to actually be able to fight while still having the CHA to cast could actually be an option.

Also, I'm a lot more interested in doing control spells and buffs than burst damage, which is why I was looking for a Magus alternative in the first place.

It might be better to do a Magus anyways, but I was just wondering. The other thing that made me wonder is with the STR bumps and being able to go with a 2hander for Vital Strike and Power Attack, the damage might be better when I'm not casting.

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Personally, I think something to keep in mind with the Dragon Disciple is that you only need a single level in an arcane casting class to meet that part of the prereqs. So, for instance, you could take a single level of Sorcerer (or even Bard, if you wanted more variety), then take levels of fighter until you met the skill rank prereqs, then jump into DraDis. (This might be unappealing if you're starting at level 1, but if you're starting at a higher level, this could be lots of fun.) You'll have better BAB and HP than if you'd put all your levels into Sorcerer (you could also do, say, a 2-3 or 3-2 mix).

Of course, you'll want to try and get Mithril armor and/or take Arcane Armor Training/Mastery feats to mitigate spell failure chance (unless you go pure Bard prior to DraDis).

Also keep in mind that although your CHA limits what level of spells you can cast (needs to be 10+spell level), you get the spell slots regardless - so if you have the ability to cast third level spells but only a CHA of 11, you can use those higher slots to cast even more Magic Missiles. ;)

My two cents. Have fun!


Couple questions.

What level are you starting at?
How much of a split are you looking at between fighting and casting? (mostly casting with a little fighting, an even mix or mostly fighting with a few spells here and there?
What material are you permited access to? If you can use 3rd party products you might have a few more options.

The Exchange

Generally Sorcerer is the best choice of arcane caster class to lead into Dragon Disciple for two reasons: firstly it's a full caster class, so all those '+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class' bumps you get are doing more for you than if you were adding them to Bard or Summoner or the like; secondly, the Blood of Dragons class feature stacks with your Sorcerer levels for determining Bloodline powers.

Personally I tend to think Babarian / Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple is the way to go. Barbarian goes very nicely with Dragon Disciple - both getting the big d12 Hit Die, and both being about boosting your physical Ability Scores. The APG also has the Savage Barbrain variant which can work sans armour, so that can help with casting, the Invulnerable Rager for increased DR, and the Brutal Pugilist is probably worth a look just because...

4 Levels of Barbarian and 1 of Sorcerer puts you only 4 BAB behind max by the time you complete the 10 levels of Dragon Disciple, and the +4 Strength from Dragon Disciple, and +4 from raging, gives you that chance to hit back. At that point you're also casting spells as a level 8 Sorcerer (so level 4 spells), and your 11 levels worth of Bloodline power give you 2 claws which count as magic and inflict 1d6 + 1d6 energy damage each as well as a bite which also does energy damage (for a nice claw/claw/bite natural attack routine), energy resistence 10, +5 natural armour, and a twice per day breath weapon. Oh... and wings...

The Barbarian rage power Moment of Clarity was pretty much built for such a character, if you're planning on casting mid-rage, but you're probably better off focusing on self-buffing spells - Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, etc. - to maximise your raw phyisical might!


John Paddlesworth wrote:

Also, I'm a lot more interested in doing control spells and buffs than burst damage, which is why I was looking for a Magus alternative in the first place.

[snip]
It might be better to do a Magus anyways, but I was just wondering. The other thing that made me wonder is with the STR bumps and being able to go with a 2hander for Vital Strike and Power Attack, the damage might be better when I'm not casting.

There are a few things to consider.

First is Concentration. Magus is full caster leveled; DD is not, especially if you split your first five levels between caster and martial classes. You can (kind of) ameliorate this by spending feats (Combat Casting), a trait, and using a reach weapon, pre-buffing, but that takes resources and/or is situational. Point for Magus.

Second is actions. Magus can cast a spell AND full attack. Actions are THE most valuable resource in the game. Point for Magus.

Third, you want melee fighting.... Magus can enhance his weapon, but DD makes YOU better. Point DD.

...control spells... Magus: grease, web, fog cloud (whoop), sleet storm, slow, stinking cloud, black tentacles, ice storm, solid fog... and on and on. Magus really does do crowd control, so either is fine. Buffing turns out similarly.

As far as weapons, you can use two hands on a one-handed weapon for full strength benefit, so the only difference you're really getting is two extra damage per hit, average, from the dice. (d12 greataxe vs d8 longsword) (You can also use double weapons as both one handed weapons or two handed weapons, although their dice aren't any better than a longsword.)

tl;dr: If you want to be a caster in melee, Magus is better. If you want to be a fighter who buffs up before battle, Dragon Disciple is better and I'd absolutely recommend Sorc above Summoner or Bard. Bloodlines are fun and who wants to only sort of turn into a dragon?

Jiggy wrote:
Also keep in mind that although your CHA limits what level of spells you can cast (needs to be 10+spell level), you get the spell slots regardless - so if you have the ability to cast third level spells but only a CHA of 11, you can use those higher slots to cast even more Magic Missiles. ;)

Sneaky! I suppose metamagicing them is out, though, or else that would be totally awesome.


ProfPotts wrote:
Personally I tend to think Babarian / Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple is the way to go.

I totally agree with this, but I think a level or two Paladin might be fun too if you can stand being LG. The smite damage isn't so hot (especially on a vital strike!) but Cha to attack and AC is nice for a sorc, Cha to saves at level 2 is awesome, and the Lay on Hands isn't big but it can be really convenient. Plus you're immune to fear -- good for hanging out with dragons! and diseases -- no comment.

The Exchange

Yeah - Ultimate Magic really amped up the potential of the Paladin, with Greater Mercy, Radiant Charge (the big one!), Reward of Grace, Reward of Life, Ultimate Mercy, Word of Healing and a few other Feats.

Paladin 4 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple 'X' looks very nice with these Feats. At that level you have 2 + Charisma modifier uses of lay on hands, so an 18 Charisma would net you a maximum 6d6+4 extra damage on a Radiant Charge... plus Smite, if you're lucky... Not to mention access to Paladin spells (more wand use!) and a host of other benefits... plus, no raging required. Still, the loss of rage-induced Strength is a little off-putting, but it all depends on the balance you're looking for.

EDIT: Of course, Ranger with the Natural Weapon combat style from the APG is also a solid choice for the character's initial 4 full-BAB levels.


Thanks for the replies guys!

Basically my thought process was, we don't have an arcane caster- So it would be nice to have access to some of those spells, and I really like battlefield control stuff like grease, sleet storm, walls, or black tentacles. But at the same time I figure you're only going to drop one of those a combat, so I wanted to be able to do something the rest of the time.

Summoner made the most sense at first. They get haste and black tentacles as soon as a Wizard would, and the pet seems really fun. I just can't nail a concept I like. So I started looking at hybrids to get that same sort of effect.

So that's where I'm coming from. I'll continue checking replies and keep checking out other options. Thanks!

Edit: Ah yes, the natural weapon ranger is something I seriously though about for claws all the time as a spell casting man-dragon.

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