I'm working on a two-handed fighter using the Weapon Master template and a Falchion to better take advantage of critical strikes. I'm taking Staggering and eventually Stunning Critical as part of the build as well as Dazing and Stunning Assault. It seemed at first that overlaying all of these potential mez conditions might be overkill at first, but then I took a closer look at CR-equivalent foes.
Generally speaking, foes must make a Fortitude save to avoid being affected by these conditions, with the DC equalling 10 + the characters BAB. In almost every instance, when looking up sample foes of the same CR level, the Fortitude save bonus was very close to the DC, generally within 2-4 points, meaning those saving throws would be almost automatic.
Does this sound right? Are the DC's relatively low because generally speaking every foe won't be on the same level CR-wise, or are they to compensate for the fact that theoretically I could subject them to the same effect multiple times a round, every round?
I was very excited about crafting this 'mezzing fighter', but now I'm concerned that it might have been a waste of feat investment considering that - at best - the conditions will work 20%-25% of the time.
Don't forget that different types of monsters have different good and bad saves.
Let's look at CR 17 monsters - to match your LVL 17 fighter with Stunning Criticals and Fort 27 DC save against them:
Blue Dragon : Fort 19 : 40% Stun
Cloud Dragon : Fort 19 : 40% Stun
Ice Linnorm : Fort 20 : 35% Stun
Keketar : Fort 22 : 25% Stun
Marilith : Fort 25 : 10% Stun
Rune Giant : Fort 15 : 60% Stun
Thrasfyr : Fort 21 : 30% Stun
Winterwight : Fort 15 : 60% Stun
Those are decent odds in many cases, especially coupled with fact you may be doing 3+ attacks per round against a foe. So, to address some of your questions directly:
1) Yes, your numbers sound right, except that spread of relevant saving throw within a CR is much broader one than you may think.
2) I'd say it's safe to assume that the DC VS Save balance is intended to both allow the fighter of that, nearly epic level, to be devastating against weaker opponents, as well as to account for the fact that Fighter of that level does get a substantial number of likely-to-hit / possibly crit attacks.
In general, I think Critical Feats are more of a "Sweeten the deal" than "Make or break" kind of thing; however, here are a couple things I noticed:
1) Some of Crit Feats have a side effect even if save is successful - i.e. 1 round of Stagger with Staggering Crit, 1D4 rounds of Dazzled with Blinding Crit etc.
2) Some Crit Feats, such as Sickening Critical, have no Save, with fairly serious effects.
3) With Critical Mastery, you get to force 2 separate effects, with 2 separate saving throws, on your opponent - chances for failure grow :)
4) Even if your target succesfully saves against Stunning Crit, 1D4 rounds of Stagger are a potentially serious problem, especially at the levels when your opponents have large numbers of attacks that are rendered useless when they can't take full-round actions such as full attacks.
If it was me, I'd use combo of Exhausting and Sickening Critical rather than Stunning, most of the time. No Save for 1 minute of -2 to ALL rolls AND -6 STR and DEX for an hour (which translates into additional -3 To Hit, -3 or more to damage rolls, -3 AC and Ref saves...) is just plain rude - and all you need to do is land a single crit to make it happen.
One thing I forgot to mention: Don't overlook the fact that many of your humanoid adversaries will, in fact, have fairly low saves, comparatively. Base Fort save for a LVL 17 Wizard, Sorcerer, Rogue, Bard and a whole slew of others will be only a +5, so even with (unlikely) high Con and cloaks of resistance, you're still looking at total fort saves in +10-12 range, meaning they stand very little chance of saving against your DC27 attack. Even the classes for whom Fort is a good save are only at +10, putting them at no more than +15 total save (and usually below that) except in cases of Con-superheavy Fighters, Barbarians and the like. So, your attacks should be very effective, against right targets.
I'm working on a two-handed fighter using the Weapon Master template and a Falchion to better take advantage of critical strikes. I'm taking Staggering and eventually Stunning Critical as part of the build as well as Dazing and Stunning Assault. It seemed at first that overlaying all of these potential mez conditions might be overkill at first, but then I took a closer look at CR-equivalent foes.
I'm sorry to point out the mez conditions from multiple feats don't stack until you can get this feat. For the information straight from the prd go here and look up the Critical Mastery Feat. Even with this the most mez conditions you could overlay is two.
Critical Mastery (Combat)
Your critical hits cause two additional effects.Prerequisites: Critical Focus, any two critical feats, 14th-level fighter.
Benefit: When you score a critical hit, you can apply the effects of two critical feats in addition to the damage dealt.
Normal: You can only apply the effects of one critical feat to a given critical hit in addition to the damage dealt.
I'm working on a two-handed fighter using the Weapon Master template and a Falchion to better take advantage of critical strikes. I'm taking Staggering and eventually Stunning Critical as part of the build as well as Dazing and Stunning Assault. It seemed at first that overlaying all of these potential mez conditions might be overkill at first, but then I took a closer look at CR-equivalent foes.
I'm sorry to point out the mez conditions from multiple feats don't stack until you can get this feat. For the information straight from the prd go here and look up the Critical Mastery Feat. Even with this the most mez conditions you could overlay is two.
Critical Mastery (Combat)
Your critical hits cause two additional effects.Prerequisites: Critical Focus, any two critical feats, 14th-level fighter.
Benefit: When you score a critical hit, you can apply the effects of two critical feats in addition to the damage dealt.
Normal: You can only apply the effects of one critical feat to a given critical hit in addition to the damage dealt.
You misunderstood what I was saying. When speaking of overlaying the potential of mez effects, I meant combining the effects of Dazing Assault (to eventually be replaced with Stunning Assault) upon a successful hit with the effects of Staggering Critical (to eventually be replaced with Stunning Critical) upon a successful critical hit. Most times when there is a confirmed critical, the foe will have to save against two potential effects, one from Assault and one from the Crit.
Don't forget that different types of monsters have different good and bad saves.
Let's look at CR 17 monsters - to match your LVL 17 fighter with Stunning Criticals and Fort 27 DC save against them:
Blue Dragon : Fort 19 : 40% Stun
Cloud Dragon : Fort 19 : 40% Stun
Ice Linnorm : Fort 20 : 35% Stun
Keketar : Fort 22 : 25% Stun
Marilith : Fort 25 : 10% Stun
Rune Giant : Fort 15 : 60% Stun
Thrasfyr : Fort 21 : 30% Stun
Winterwight : Fort 15 : 60% StunThose are decent odds in many cases, especially coupled with fact you may be doing 3+ attacks per round against a foe. So, to address some of your questions directly:
1) Yes, your numbers sound right, except that spread of relevant saving throw within a CR is much broader one than you may think.
2) I'd say it's safe to assume that the DC VS Save balance is intended to both allow the fighter of that, nearly epic level, to be devastating against weaker opponents, as well as to account for the fact that Fighter of that level does get a substantial number of likely-to-hit / possibly crit attacks.
In general, I think Critical Feats are more of a "Sweeten the deal" than "Make or break" kind of thing; however, here are a couple things I noticed:
1) Some of Crit Feats have a side effect even if save is successful - i.e. 1 round of Stagger with Staggering Crit, 1D4 rounds of Dazzled with Blinding Crit etc.
2) Some Crit Feats, such as Sickening Critical, have no Save, with fairly serious effects.
3) With Critical Mastery, you get to force 2 separate effects, with 2 separate saving throws, on your opponent - chances for failure grow :)
4) Even if your target succesfully saves against Stunning Crit, 1D4 rounds of Stagger are a potentially serious problem, especially at the levels when your opponents have large numbers of attacks that are rendered useless when they can't take full-round actions such as full attacks.If it was me, I'd use combo of Exhausting and Sickening Critical rather than Stunning, most of the time. No Save for 1 minute of -2...
This is an excellent breakdown and exactly what I was looking for. The character in question will often be using Whirlwind Attack and Lunge (especially in the early to mid levels) to be spreading that mez goodness, which is why it means more to me to have a decent attempt to inflict a condition on a single hit. It should also be pointed out that at level 17, the Weaponmaster causes foes to save at -4 against effects caused by critical hits.
I had considered Sickening Critical specifically because it would further lower those saving throws by another -2, but I'm not sure if I can find room in the build. I suppose I could dump the three Step-Up feats for Sickening, Exhausting and Mastery, but would that be considered overkill?
While we're on the subject, let's say that I have Critical Mastery and apply both Sickening Critical and Stunning Criticial to a foe in the same round - does the -2 on saves from Sickening affect the target immediately so that Stunning has a better chance to work, or are they considered to apply simultaneously?
Thanks again for the response.
Edit: From your advice, I'm tinkering with my feat list and this is currently what I'm sitting at:
1st - Weapon Focus: Falchion, Power Attack, Cleave
2nd - Dodge
3rd - Mobility
4th - Combat Expertise
5th - Spring Attack
6th - Whirlwind Attack
7th - Lunge
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion (retrain Cleave to Weapon Specialization: Falchion)
9th - Improved Critical: Falchion
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Sickening Critical
12th - Dazing Assault
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion
15th - Iron Will
16th - Stunning Assault (retrain Dazing Assault to Critical Mastery )
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Step-Up
19th - Following Step
20th - Step Up and Strike
Figure under these circumstances, I'll use Dazing/Stunning Assault with the Lunging Whirlwind Attacks to kind of pacify the crowd, and when going up against a single foe I'll just lean on the critical possibilities for my mitigation. As it stands, by level 17 the DC vs. Stun will be 31, and even if they save they'll be both Sickened and Staggered for at least 1d4 rounds. Next to that, what's an extra 2 or 4 points of damage, eh?
You misunderstood what I was saying. When speaking of overlaying the potential of mez effects, I meant combining the effects of Dazing Assault (to eventually be replaced with Stunning Assault) upon a successful hit with the effects of Staggering Critical (to eventually be replaced with Stunning Critical) upon a successful critical hit. Most times when there is a confirmed critical, the foe will have to save against two potential effects, one from Assault and one from the Crit.Stuff...Stuff...
Sorry about that I was thinking you were stacking critical feats.