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So when reading this spell, I see that it says for the saving throw "see text." After reading the spell I could not find any part talking about a saving throw. I read the part about the strength check, but I am not sure if this would be the saving throw that it mentions. I also checked Wall of Fire, which does not allow a save.
So my question is, what is the saving throw for?
Wall of Lava
School conjuration (creation) [earth, fire]; Level druid 8, sorcerer/wizard 8
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a chunk of dried lava)
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets lava wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (S)
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
This spell creates a vertical wall of lava that is 1 inch thick for every 4 caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. A wall of lava's maximum height cannot exceed half of its width (with a minimum height of 5 feet). The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or object. A section of a wall of lava can be destroyed by damage (hardness 4, hp 90), but if a section is destroyed, the remaining lava in the wall immediately fills in any such hole created, reducing the wall's overall size by one 5-foot square but remaining a contiguous barrier. Each time a weapon strikes a wall of lava, it takes 2d6 points of fire damage (or the creature who strikes the wall takes 2d6 fire damage if the attack was via an unarmed strike or natural attack).
A creature can move through a wall of lava as a full-round action by making a DC 25 Strength check-failure indicates that the creature is pushed back out of the wall to the point he just attempted to leave. A creature with a burrow speed can move through the wall using its burrow speed. An attempt to move through a wall of lava inflicts 20d6 fire damage. A wall of lava also radiates heat as if it were a wall of fire, although the heat from a wall of lava radiates from both sides.
Once per round as a move action, you can direct the wall of lava to erupt. This causes a plume of lava to fire at any target within 60 feet of either side of the wall, but reduces the wall's overall size by 1d4 5-foot square sections. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target, which takes 10d6 points of fire damage on a hit. Holes created in a wall of lava from this effect instantly reseal, reducing the overall size of the wall.
All damage inflicted by physical contact with a wall of lava continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 5d6 or 10d6 points per round).
Wall of Fire
School evocation [fire]; Level druid 5, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a piece of phosphor)
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect opaque sheet of flame up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of fire with a radius of up to 5 ft./two levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire springs into existence. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears, and to all creatures in the area on your turn each round. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.
If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. If any 5-foot length of wall takes 20 points or more of cold damage in 1 round, that length goes away. (Do not divide cold damage by 2, as normal for objects.)
Wall of fire can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent wall of fire that is extinguished by cold damage becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then reforms at normal strength.
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It's this bit here
"Once per round as a move action, you can direct the wall of lava to erupt. This causes a plume of lava to fire at any target within 60 feet of either side of the wall, but reduces the wall's overall size by 1d4 5-foot square sections. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target, which takes 10d6 points of fire damage on a hit. Holes created in a wall of lava from this effect instantly reseal, reducing the overall size of the wall."
The target of your plume should get a reflex save for half (or better) damage. It isn't implicitly stated but fits within the overall power level of other similar spell level effects.
It's this bit here
"Once per round as a move action, you can direct the wall of lava to erupt. This causes a plume of lava to fire at any target within 60 feet of either side of the wall, but reduces the wall's overall size by 1d4 5-foot square sections. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target, which takes 10d6 points of fire damage on a hit. Holes created in a wall of lava from this effect instantly reseal, reducing the overall size of the wall."
The target of your plume should get a reflex save for half (or better) damage. It isn't implicitly stated but fits within the overall power level of other similar spell level effects.
But in general, a spell that requires an attack roll does not require a saving throw. The opposite is also true - spells that allow saves generally don't have attack rolls. And since the spell says "See Text" for its save, and no effect mentions a saving throw, there is no saving throw to be made.
Interesting, so really know mention of a saving throw then? Hmm. My cleric player just increased his Wisdom score through some wishes, so he asked me to help him find some more spells due to the bonus ones from the Wisdom bump. He wanted something blasty to help support the party’s mage. He really liked the Wall of Lava spell after I pointed it out to him.
I think for the near future, at least until Wall of Lava’s saving throw dilemma gets resolved at least, I will still let him use it (he was really excited about it).
I plan on running it as striking the wall (2d6 damage) will be Reflex save to negate. Being shot with the plume (10d6) will be Reflex save for half damage. And anyone just rushing through the wall (20d6) gets no save (environmental rules for lava is also 20d6 no save.)
Anybody got any thoughts on game balance with those saves? Thanks everyone for replying to my question btw.
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This is a Level 8 spell so I'd let it stay as BA as it's written but, if you're going to allow a Reflex for 1/2, I suggest you drop the ranged touch attack entirely and just make the plume a line effect like a lightning bolt. At least then the caster might do half damage to more than one enemy.
For the striking damage, I wouldn't allow the save. It's a 5ft-thick wall of solid lava generating enough heat to char anyone standing within 10ft of it within a minute. If a creature is close enough to punch the thing, it's already burning. If beating on the wall of lava is so important, bring some sunblock or suck it up.
Anything trying to go through the lava should definitely take the 20d6, no save. I don't care how good a creature's Reflex save is or how strong it is. Anything dumb enough to claw its way through a wall of lava is turning into a pot pie.
In two levels, anybody capable of casting this spell is going to be able to perform actual miracles, grant wishes or summon solars. Given that, I think the spell is fine as written.
Velcro Zipper said: For the striking damage, I wouldn't allow the save. It's a 5ft-thick wall of solid lava generating enough heat to char anyone standing within 10ft of it within a minute.
True. If Wall of Fire is 1 - 10ft 2d4 fire damage and 11 - 20ft 1d4 fire damage no save, then this effect should be no save.
Jeraa said: But in general, a spell that requires an attack roll does not require a saving throw. The opposite is also true - spells that allow saves generally don't have attack rolls.
I was thinking that too. Spells like scorching ray are attack roll no save.
Maybe the save is for the ongoing damage that occurs for 1d3 rounds? Something like Reflex for half or something. Or better yet, maybe its like Firestorm. Reflex save to get the lava off of yourself sooner than the 1d3 rounds. With an option for Stop, Drop, and Roll to gain a bonus to the save. Full-round action for the Reflex save?
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The text says "Saving Throw - see text," but I don't see anything that warrants a save. I checked the rules for lava and the only saves I found were related to being overcome by a wave of lava or avoiding lava bombs. Unless they errata it, I'd just ignore the saving throw text. If there was something in there about catching on fire or resisting poisonous vapors from the lava, I could see it but none of that is mentioned.
I couldn't find any saves for lava effects either. I'm going to run it with no save. I can't really picture this spell with no save allowed breaking the game. My players and I can always adjust it in the future if it does prove problematic. But just from reading it, I can't see how it would be broken with no save. Lots of things have fire resistance/immunity. I guess actual gameplay experience will let us know.