Reach on large creatures

[blaznee]

So the only thread I could find about this is this one:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/largeCreaturesReach&page=1&source=search#0

But something doesn't quite make sense to me.. And I wonder if anyone else has had this clarified, or play it differently than the above thread..

So a standard reach weapon used by a medium size creature reaches the 2nd square away from the character.

Now in many stat blocks for large creature it states "reach 10", which makes me think that "Reach" pr. standard is reach 5..

So if reach is 5 and threatens 2nd square away. Wouldn't a reach 10 stat mean they threaten 3 squares away?.

The reason being that we're fighting a lot of giants at the moment, and the better fighters among them would always try to be at range.. As we play it right now, the player characters can still just take a 5ft step and hit the giant with a full attack.. I want them to feel the danger from the AoO and not have the ability for a full attack. It just seems more "fighting a giant"'ish :D..

Has anyone playtested this? It may make the giants MUCH more difficult.

[Adam Ormond]

The rules are spread out in the PF Core Rulebook, but here are some useful diagrams on d20pfsrd.com.

A medium creature has a reach of 5', unless otherwise noted. A large creature has a reach of 10', unless otherwise noted.

A 5' reach extends to all adjacent squares. A 10' reach extends to all squares within two.

When you have a reach weapon, you double your natural reach. So a medium creature with a reach weapon has a 10' reach. A large creature with a reach weapon has a 20' reach. When wielding a reach weapon, you generally are unable to hit creatures in your natural reach.

[Gilfalas]

blaznee wrote:

As we play it right now, the player characters can still just take a 5ft step and hit the giant with a full attack.. I want them to feel the danger from the AoO and not have the ability for a full attack. It just seems more "fighting a giant"'ish

Adam is 100% correct in his explanation. Remember that you cannot combine a 5 foot step in the same round as any other actual movement, so with a 10 fooot reach the giants are getting a free round of attacks as the fighters cautuiously close the distance. They move to 10 feet away and stop. Then use the 5 foot step the following round to get their full attack.

If you want the giants to be more 'reachy' give them long spears or a glaive. That way they have a 20 foot reach and closing will be that much harder.

In general though, giants are tough for their reach but also for the heavy damage they do.

[Adam Ormond]

Yeah, Giants hit really hard. A simple CR7 Hill Giant can kill a typical Barbarian or Fighter in two rounds, if their full attacks hit. If they get a crit, they can take one out in a single round.

Typical 15 point Fighter is going to have ~60-70 hitpoints, depending on a 14 or 16 CON. Hill Giant will do ~20 damage average a hit, and nearly 40 on a crit.

[The black raven]

Gilfalas wrote:

If you want the giants to be more 'reachy' give them long spears or a glaive. That way they have a 20 foot reach and closing will be that much harder.

And don't forget the armor spikes to take care of attackers in your giants' natural reach. Unless slams already take care of that, of course.

In fact, it is not clear to me whether slams are considered unarmed attacks, ie not threatening unless you have improved unarmed strike, or natural attacks and thus threatening.

[Maezer]

The black raven wrote:

In fact, it is not clear to me whether slams are considered unarmed attacks, ie not threatening unless you have improved unarmed strike, or natural attacks and thus threatening.

Slams are considered natural weapons. Thus they threaten as natural weapons.

[Adam Ormond]

Maezer wrote:

The black raven wrote:

In fact, it is not clear to me whether slams are considered unarmed attacks, ie not threatening unless you have improved unarmed strike, or natural attacks and thus threatening.

Slams are considered natural weapons. Thus they threaten as natural weapons.

A slam is with a hand/arm. If the Giants are wielding 2H Reach weapons, they can't Slam on their AOO as their hands are already occupied.

If they're wearing Armor Spikes, they can take their AOO and carry on.

At least that's my understanding.

Now technically, I think the Giants could Full-Attack with their 2H Reach weapons, and then release their grip to give them a free hand to AOO with each round. But then they can't AOO with the reach weapon.