Last night my DM and I had a disagreement on the saving throw for Oppresssive Boredom. When my bard cast the spell on his big bad hellhound, he immediately asked for a save DC, rolled, and failed (thanks in part to the Dirge of Doom).
"Yay," said the players, because I had effectively immobilized a creature identical to one that had almost wiped the party a month earlier. My turn was over, and next up in Initiative was the Hellhound. Since, according to the wording of Oppressive Boredom, he rolls a save any time he wants to take an action, he rolled a new save - and made it.
I protested on the grounds that he had already failed a save. We looked up the wording of the spell and basically everyone except DM argued that he should not have made a save when the spell was cast but waited until it was his turn. I argued that since casting the spell effectively ended my turn and he was up next, he had already rolled it, failed, and was giving himself an extra save after I had devoted my entire turn to disabling this baddie (the Dirge also started that round).
He eventually compromised on the fact that he had rolled and failed a save, which should immobilize the target for the first round at least. At the same time, he argued that in spite of the wording of the spell, what Paizo MEANT with the spell is that the target gets a save immediately, and burns his actions for that turn if that save fails.
I personally don't think that's RAW; whereas in this particular case it was an academic difference because the target was the next to go anyway, I can see situations where it would be advantageous for the save not to come until the target's turn. Like if allies want to buff the target's save with something like Good Hope, or enemies want to put penalties on the save with Dirges or other things that lower saving throws - BEFORE the target even gets to make its first save.
Can I get a ruling on this from official Paizo people?
I think your DM ruled it correctly initially.
Will save as you cast it to avoid the spell completely.
Then Will saves whenever the creature wants to take an action, until there is a success.
This is very similar to Hold Person
stuffI'm not a developer, but I would say that the Save: Will Negates see text implies that the text itself gives the conditions of the save. Since the text says
I would rule that this means the will save only needs to happen the next time the creature thinks about performing an action. In any case, a second level spell that uses the caster's standard action, then offers 2 consecutive saves to shake off the effect, allows an additional save each round to shake, AND has a 1 round/level duration seems woefully underpowered (see Hideous Laughter for a comparable-effect spell).
...must make a Will save against the spell’s effect in order to perform its next action.
I agree, and even without the saves I think it's way underpowered. It's almost as easy to shake as Lesser Confusion (except for being one higher in Will DC), and might last just as long depending on the targets Will.
A proper revision for the spell might be that the target only gets one save and is bored for the entire duration, unless/until the target it attacked or takes damage from any source (since nothing stops boredom like pain).
I think your DM ruled it correctly initially.
Will save as you cast it to avoid the spell completely.
Then Will saves whenever the creature wants to take an action, until there is a success.
This is very similar to Hold Person
Well, HP explicitly states that the subject gets a NEW saving throw on its turn.
OB, on the other hand, says nothing about subjects falling out of the sky or drowning.Also, HP explicitly applies the Paralyzed condition and by extension, the Helpless condition. OP places no such conditions on it's subject, which apparently retains its full AC and saves.
So now I'm wondering if a Bored harpy flapping its wings to stay in the same place constitutes a move action, or if a person under the effect of a FLY spell can be Bored and still hover.
Well, HP explicitly states that the subject gets a NEW saving throw on its turn.
Clearly you must have to roll subsequent saving throws after an initial failure.
The boredom lasts until the duration expires or the target breaks the spell’s effect with a successful Will save.
The spell doesn't make sense if you don't make new saves. Otherwise, if you fail, you fail for the duration.
I don't see any reason why the initial save should also be used as the first save to perform the next action.
Initial save determines if you are affected by the spell. If no, then you are done. If yes, then you suffer the effects.
The effect is that you need to make a will save each turn to take an action, until you succeed.
So, yes, you get two saves in the first round to avoid the effects. It doesn't say that you automatically lose your action in the first round.
OB, on the other hand, says nothing about subjects falling out of the sky or drowning.
Also, HP explicitly applies the Paralyzed condition and by extension, the Helpless condition. OP places no such conditions on it's subject, which apparently retains its full AC and saves.
So now I'm wondering if a Bored harpy flapping its wings to stay in the same place constitutes a move action, or if a person under the effect of a FLY spell can be Bored and still hover.
Very true. My comment was about how the saves are treated, nothing more.
Well, HP explicitly states that the subject gets a NEW saving throw on its turn.Clearly you must have to roll subsequent saving throws after an initial failure.
The boredom lasts until the duration expires or the target breaks the spell’s effect with a successful Will save.The spell doesn't make sense if you don't make new saves. Otherwise, if you fail, you fail for the duration.
I don't see any reason why the initial save should also be used as the first save to perform the next action.
Initial save determines if you are affected by the spell. If no, then you are done. If yes, then you suffer the effects.
The effect is that you need to make a will save each turn to take an action, until you succeed.
So, yes, you get two saves in the first round to avoid the effects. It doesn't say that you automatically lose your action in the first round.
OB, on the other hand, says nothing about subjects falling out of the sky or drowning.
Also, HP explicitly applies the Paralyzed condition and by extension, the Helpless condition. OP places no such conditions on it's subject, which apparently retains its full AC and saves.
So now I'm wondering if a Bored harpy flapping its wings to stay in the same place constitutes a move action, or if a person under the effect of a FLY spell can be Bored and still hover.Very true. My comment was about how the saves are treated, nothing more.
I guess I didn't make myself clear in the last post. When you pointed out the similarity to Hold Person, my first reaction was "Gee, why didn't I just use that spell? It messes up the target a lot more," followed by, "Hey, these spells are basically the same thing. Oh wait, Hold Person messes up your enemy a lot more. No wonder they get two saves to move instead of one."
I actually overlooked that Hold Person only targets humanoids, something I did remember during the game. So I guess OB amounts to a cheap version of Hold Monster.
Nevertheless, the RAW make no mention of an initial save, only the saves before the subject can take actions. Is it really just an oversight?
Even though the game is filled up with them, spells like that which are basically designed to spoil the game shouldn't be used. You wouldn't have anything to argue about if you just buffed the party with your action and let the fight play out.
Huh? There are spells designed to spoil the game? After we were done, the DM made it a point to mention how useful the spell had been, and how if I hadn't held him with it, he would have straight up killed one of the PCs on the next turn. And then he congratulated me.
I think your DM ruled it correctly initially.
Will save as you cast it to avoid the spell completely.
Then Will saves whenever the creature wants to take an action, until there is a success.
This is very similar to Hold Person
If Hold Person is the precedent, then the DM ruled incorrectly. Hold Person you make a save when the spell is cast on you. Fail, and then, on your turn, you take a full-round action to save again. Win, lose or draw on that second save, you've lost a turn.
If Hold Person is the precedent, then the DM ruled incorrectly. Hold Person you make a save when the spell is cast on you. Fail, and then, on your turn, you take a full-round action to save again. Win, lose or draw on that second save, you've lost a turn.I think your DM ruled it correctly initially.
Will save as you cast it to avoid the spell completely.
Then Will saves whenever the creature wants to take an action, until there is a success.
This is very similar to Hold Person
Good Point
Nevertheless, the RAW make no mention of an initial save, only the saves before the subject can take actions. Is it really just an oversight?
I don't think so, although the wording could be better in that regard. The OB entry is:
Saving Throw Will negates (see text);
If you didn't get a saving throw when the spell was cast, it would have been:
Saving Throw none (see text);
If Hold Person is the precedent, then the DM ruled incorrectly. Hold Person you make a save when the spell is cast on you. Fail, and then, on your turn, you take a full-round action to save again. Win, lose or draw on that second save, you've lost a turn.
The only correlation I wanted to make with hold person is that you got to resave every turn, that's all. The details of the spell are quite different.
HP and OB. Make a will save when cast. Each round thereafter make a will save to break the spell. HP is a full-round action, OB is no action.
They are both 2nd level bard spells, but HP only works on humanoids and affects you much more strongly.
An official response will be even slower than usual, because everyone who's anyone is at PaizoCon 2011.
If you didn't get a saving throw when the spell was cast, it would have been:
Saving Throw none (see text);
I kind of doubt it, because then people would see the "none" and jump to the conclusion that no saving throw can be taken at all.
Is there another spell that says "Saving Throw: none (see text)"?
Hold Person is a level three Wizard, level two everything else (including Bard) spell. Oppressive Boredom is a level two Wizard, level two Bard spell. That gives you some measure of the power difference right away.
But there's also something else very important. Hold Person only targets humanoid creatures. Oppressive Boredom targets creatures. That is a big jump. That is the difference between Hold Person and Hold Monster jump.
I can see the extra chance to fail being a cost for this only being a level two spell. That just means you have to use it wisely, against the right targets.
Very good, key point I think.
Reading the thread initially, my thought was that allowing the two saves was wrong, and that there should be at least some effect for failing the initial save. I think perhaps the loss of a move action (instead of Hold Person's Full-round) might be appropriate. Losing an entire turn would make it too powerful however.
(edited for clarity)
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If you didn't get a saving throw when the spell was cast, it would have been:
Saving Throw none (see text);I kind of doubt it, because then people would see the "none" and jump to the conclusion that no saving throw can be taken at all.
Is there another spell that says "Saving Throw: none (see text)"?
Just because I can:
Have "Saving throw: none (see text)":
Ghost Wolf
Control Constructs
Cursed Earth
Fickle Winds
Have "Saving throw: None or Will negates; see text":
Analyze Dweomer
Dictum
Misdirection
Repel Vermin
Word of Chaos