My stance is that the formula is how you determine the base cost and it makes perfect since because that formula is also the 3.5 formula, and it matches the 3.5 prices if you plug numbers into it.
edit:Origin post
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Let's try to define the terms as using cost will only increase confusion as it is used in several ways:
Production cost (or cost): the cost to produce an item.
Craft Price: the cost to produce an item.
Sell price: the price at which a magic item is sold by a merchant
Resale value: the price at which a merchant will by a item from a PC (barring special circumstances).
Caster Level: the spell caster level at which a potion, scroll or wand will cast the spell contained in it.
Spell level: the level of a spell for a specific class.
Ok so far?
So:
If the caster level of a potion, wand or scroll is higher both the craft price and the sell price are higher,
but
if some caster get a spell as a level 2 spell instead of level 1 spell and the item has the same caster level the craft price change but the sell price and the resale value stay the same. The item is sold as it it was made by the more efficient (low cost) caster.
Example:
- a CLW wand made by a cleric at Caster Level 4 has a production cost of 1.500 to craft and a sell price of 3.000
- a CLW (for the ranger the spell is a level 2 spell) wand made by a ranger at Caster Level 4 has a production cost of 3.000 but it has a sell price of 3.000 as that is the minimum price for a wand of CLW with that casting level.
The situation will change if in your game world the magic item crafting feats are taken only by a few individuals and the seller rule the market, but that is not the standard game situation.
That is incorrect. The formula I quoted above is from the book, and it has a fireball wand as an example. That formula also matches the 3.5 wand prices if you insert numbers into them.PS:That formula is what you use to determine the base price. The crafting price is half the cost of the base price.
Numbers:
Clerical wand of CLW spell level 1 x caster level 4 x 750 = Sell price 3.000
Sell price/2 = Craft Price 1.500
Ranger wand of CLW spell level 2 x caster level 4 x 750 = Sell price 6.000
Sell price/2 = Craft Price 3.000
So far it is clear right?
But then we have the magic mart seller:
Cleric wand - cure 1d8+4 x 50 charges and it is sold at 3.000
Ranger wand - cure 1d8+4 x 50 charges and is sold at 6.000
So the supposed buyer pay x2 the ranger wand without any reason to do so. I am almost sure that in a corner of the rules it say that the shop owner will buy and sell at the price of the more efficient caster for the spell.
Enter the resale value, the price at which the shop owner will buy the item:
Cleric wand of CLW: the shop owner will pay 1.500 for a CL4 wand and will sell it a 3.000.
Ranger wand of CLW: the shop owner will still pay 1.500 for the wand and sell it at 3.000 as the item, for him, is exactly the same item. A wand that cure 1d8+4 hp every time it is used.
Let's try to define the terms as using cost will only increase confusion as it is used in several ways:
Production cost (or cost): the cost to produce an item.
Craft Price: the cost to produce an item.
Sell price: the price at which a magic item is sold by a merchant
Resale value: the price at which a merchant will by a item from a PC (barring special circumstances).
Caster Level: the spell caster level at which a potion, scroll or wand will cast the spell contained in it.
Spell level: the level of a spell for a specific class.
Ok so far?
So:
If the caster level of a potion, wand or scroll is higher both the craft price and the sell price are higher,
but
if some caster get a spell as a level 2 spell instead of level 1 spell and the item has the same caster level the craft price change but the sell price and the resale value stay the same. The item is sold as it it was made by the more efficient (low cost) caster.
Example:
- a CLW wand made by a cleric at Caster Level 4 has a production cost of 1.500 to craft and a sell price of 3.000
- a CLW (for the ranger the spell is a level 2 spell) wand made by a ranger at Caster Level 4 has a production cost of 3.000 but it has a sell price of 3.000 as that is the minimum price for a wand of CLW with that casting level.The situation will change if in your game world the magic item crafting feats are taken only by a few individuals and the seller rule the market, but that is not the standard game situation.
The cleric one is correct.
As for the ranger one the formula in the book determines base price.The base price is the price that merchants use when selling the item to you.
You may craft an item at half of the base price if you have the feats to do so.
Your version of sell price = base price. The book has a very specific formula for determining this. That formula matches the 3.5 prices also when you go and plug the numbers in.
It should also be noted that items that vary like this are priced by using cleric, wizard, and druid levels to make sure there is a uniform price in PFS.
Now when I sell things to my players in a game I assume book cost(since I assume it was made by a caster that can do it cheaper) just to make things easy for them, but if they are the ones crafting they use the book formula just like any merchant would if he used a class that resulted in a higher price.
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price.
That means the craft cost(production cost) is half of the what the item is worth on the market(sell price). Notice that the quote says "always".
Note that the sentence I quoted and the chart both support a sell price of 6000, and a craft price of 3000.
The production(craft) price is 3000 because that is how the math works out.
Have it your way.
The ranger wands, while doing the same, identical thing are sold at x2 the cleric wands.
[emote: roll eyes]
I am just telling you what the book says, no need to be rude.
Diego is correct, in that if the caster level is the same, the items do the same and are priced off the cheapest formula for purposes of selling. This is economics 101, and also in the book per RAW.
What Diego is missing is that the CL will not be the same unless PCs are involved or DM fiat is being used.
The magic item section says that you should assume all magic items are created 'At the minimum CL needed to create the item'. Diego keeps using CL 4 with his example of the CLW's, both for the Ranger and the Cleric. That's not a valid example if we are going by strict RAW.
We should have the following CL's based on class :
Bard : CL 1
Cleric : Cl 1
Druid : CL 1
Oracle : CL 1
Ranger : CL 4
Now, for the Bard, the Cleric, and the Oracle, and the Druid, the CLW wand will have the same cost to create, the same value to be sold, and the same effect when used (1d8+1). The Ranger wand however, will have a CL 3 higher, and will heal more (1d8+4). Ergo, the Ranger Wand is actually worth more than the other four wands.
This is even more so true for Cure Moderate, which has the following spell caster levels :
Bard : CL 4 (SL 2)
Cleric : CL 3 (SL 2)
Druid : CL 5 (SL 3)
Oracle : CL 4 (SL 2)
Paladin : CL 7 (SL 3)
Ranger : CL 7 (SL 3)
This makes for a confusing morass, but let's see what we can do with it.
Ranger and Paladin wands of CMW have a creation cost 3 x 7 x 750 x 1/2 = 7,875. They heal 2d8+7 with each use. However, they will have a sale price based on the cheapest way to make a CL 7 CMW wand, which is the Cleric with 2 x 7 x 750 = 10,500.
Druid wands of CMW have a creation cost of 3 x 5 x 750 x 1/2 = 5,625. They heal 2d8+5 with each use. However, they will have a sale price based on the cheapest way to make a CL 5 CMW wand, which is the Cleric with 2 x 5 x 750 = 7,500gp.
Bard & Oracle wands have a creation cost of 2 x 4 x 750 x 1/2 = 3,000. They heal 2d8+4 with each use. They sell for 6,000gp.
Finally, cleric wands have a creation cost of 2 x 3 x 750 x 1/2 = 2,250. They heal 2d8+3 with each use. They sell for 4,500gp.
What does all that mean? It means that the most common wand is going to be the cleric wand, because it's the cheapest. However, it doesn't mean that Ranger, Druid, Paladin, etc wands are going to sell for that price. They heal more than cleric wands do, thanks to the higher CL's required to make them. It just means that 95% of the time, any CMW wand you buy is going to have been made by a cleric and do 2d8+3. What everyone seems to be getting hung up on is the value. The value is simply the value of that wand made the cheapest way possible for that Caster Level. So the level at which the class get's the spell is important, as it sets the minimum caster level that class can make the wand at for purposes of being in the store, which set's the creation costs. The sale value, however, is going to be the value of the cheapest way of making that CL of wand across all the classes, which is generally Cleric/Druid/Wizard values.
The magic item section says that you should assume all magic items are created 'At the minimum CL needed to create the item'.
This is there so it be can be safely assumed that clerics, druids, and so on(those who can make the items at the lowest cost) are the ones making the items. Even making something at the minimum caster level however does not mean 2 people who are using different level versions of the same spell will give you the same price. The game also fails economy 101 on many levels. If the quote read something along the lines of "use the cheapest class when determining market price" or something similar that would be different.* That is not what it says though. It only says use the lowest caster level possible. As an example if a level 20 wizard is making a magic item that only needs a caster level of 1 then it is assumed he did using a caster level of 1. It does not mean that a class that uses a higher level version of a spell can pretend he has access to the same spell at a lower level since that is not a "caster level" variant. That is a class variant, and caster level has nothing to do with it since level 4 rangers don't count as virtual level 1 clerics or druids for the purpose of crafting. It would have been a nice rule though
What does all that mean? It means that the most common wand is going to be the cleric wand, because it's the cheapest. However, it doesn't mean that Ranger, Druid, Paladin, etc wands are going to sell for that price. They heal more than cleric wands do, thanks to the higher CL's required to make them. It just means that 95% of the time, any CMW wand you buy is going to have been made by a cleric and do 2d8+3. What everyone seems to be getting hung up on is the value. The value is simply the value of that wand made the cheapest way possible for that Caster Level. So the level at which the class get's the spell is important, as it sets the minimum caster level that class can make the wand at for purposes of being in the store, which set's the creation costs. The sale value, however, is going to be the value of the cheapest way of making that CL of wand across all the classes, which is generally Cleric/Druid/Wizard values.
I agree with the first sentence. I also think that if you go specifically go to a druid he will make you pay more than if go to a cleric for the same wand. To allow otherwise is to game the system.
I think the issue here is that you are looking at CL as the lowest caster level at which any class can make. Lowest caster level to me is the particular class that is being used to make the item that is currently being sold. An example which I stated upthread is the level 20 wizard making an item that only requires a CL of 1 for that class.
I will state once again in case I did not state it before that if they intended for it to work by your view and DR's view they would have said use the lowest spell level that any class can use to access the spell since you can always lower your caster in order to keep the price low.* That would have allowed a ranger to access CLW as a level 1 spell for the purpose of crafting.
*Both of these would have worked to support your example. I will bold them for convenience.
Concerro,
I think you have missed this paragraph in the Making Magic Items section.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
So I reiterate that what I posted above matches the RAW. A CMW that heals 2d8+7 will only be worth what a caster of the lowest possible level could make it for x 2 (That would be a Cleric 7), making it of the value 10,500, even if it costs the Ranger and Paladin more than half that to make it. The rule is pretty specific that it says it is only worth twice the cost of the lowest possible caster to make. It doesn't say the lowest the creator can make it at, it says to use the lowest possible level caster no matter who makes it. As in, use the cleric for the CMW wand no matter who makes it, be they ranger or paladin or oracle.
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mdt, I use the example of a CLW wand made by a cleric a CL 4 to compare two identical things.
Normally the rules assume that the item is made at the lowest caster level as there is little or no advantage to make them at an higher CL, for example the (infamous) CLW wands made by a cleric at CL 4 would cost 3.000 gp and heal 50d8+200 before being exhausted, but, with the same 3.000 gp you would buy 4 CL 1 wands, that would heal 200d8+200 before being exhausted.
For specific spells like most of the damage dealing spells the caster level matter and I see plenty of higher CL wands as treasure in adventures.
The Pathfinder Corebook don't list them, probably for space reasons, but the 3.5 Dungeon Master Guide had several wands with not basic CL.
My "magic shops" (where they exist) sell wands and scrolls as higher CL than basic if there is a real advantage worth the cost multiplier in making them. A CL 1 wand of magic missiles is such a waste of actions that (almost) no one will buy it.
Thanks for finding the quote BTW.
Concerro, a guy that buy a ranger CLW wand for 6.000 gp when he could buy a 8 clerical CLW wands with the same money has failed economy 1, not 101.
I need a very sleeved economy where there is no way to get the cheaper wands for the ranger wand to sell.
To remove the issue of "creating at higher level than needed" from the calculation, let's look at another wand: A wand of Confusion.
Both a wizard and a bard can create one at level 7.
A bard has to spend 3*7*375=7875 gp to create one.
A wizard has to spend 4*7*375=10500.
To buy a wand of confusion always costs 7875*2=15750, by mdt's quote - regardless of who made it.
It's a little bit stupid since the wizard version has a DC of 16 while the bard version only has a DC of 14, but whatever. At the point where you create/buy that kind of stuff, most people will make their saves anyway.
mdt, I use the example of a CLW wand made by a cleric a CL 4 to compare two identical things.
Normally the rules assume that the item is made at the lowest caster level as there is little or no advantage to make them at an higher CL, for example the (infamous) CLW wands made by a cleric at CL 4 would cost 3.000 gp and heal 50d8+200 before being exhausted, but, with the same 3.000 gp you would buy 4 CL 1 wands, that would heal 200d8+200 before being exhausted.For specific spells like most of the damage dealing spells the caster level matter and I see plenty of higher CL wands as treasure in adventures.
I understood why you were doing it, I just objected to the fact that it was clouding the issue with some of the other posters is all. This is a big nasty pile of yarn, and extra threads were confusing the issues. :)
As to the 'why pay more for a higher CL wand', on occasion, you want that 50% boost to one healing (1d8+5 vs 1d8+1). Those 4 hp can make a big difference in combat. Out of combat, you're better off with the 1d8+1.
In other words, I could see a party buying 3 wands at a time, 2 CL 1 CLWs, and 1 CL 5 wand. The cleric would use the CL 5 wand in combat, to maximize his hp per action, and the normal CL 1 wand out of combat to maximize the HP per gp.
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As to the 'why pay more for a higher CL wand', on occasion, you want that 50% boost to one healing (1d8+5 vs 1d8+1). Those 4 hp can make a big difference in combat. Out of combat, you're better off with the 1d8+1.In other words, I could see a party buying 3 wands at a time, 2 CL 1 CLWs, and 1 CL 5 wand. The cleric would use the CL 5 wand in combat, to maximize his hp per action, and the normal CL 1 wand out of combat to maximize the HP per gp.
A clerical Cure Moderate Wounds, CL 3 would cure 2d8+3, average 12 hp, and cost 4.500 gp. 375 gp for each hp.
A CL 5 clerical wand would cost 3.750 gp and cure an average of 9.5 hp.
394 and fraction gp for each hp and generally less hp cured.
Cure spells don't scale well with the level.
I understood why you were doing it, I just objected to the fact that it was clouding the issue with some of the other posters is all. This is a big nasty pile of yarn, and extra threads were confusing the issues. :)
Stringburka has resolved that elegantly.
Concerro,
I think you have missed this paragraph in the Making Magic Items section.So I reiterate that what I posted above matches the RAW. A CMW that heals 2d8+7 will only be worth what a caster of the lowest possible level could make it for x 2 (That would be a Cleric 7), making it of the value 10,500, even if it costs the Ranger and Paladin more than half that to make it. The rule is pretty specific that it says it is only worth twice the cost of the lowest possible caster to make. It doesn't say the lowest the creator can make it at, it says to use the lowest possible level caster no matter who makes it. As in, use the cleric for the CMW wand no matter who makes it, be they ranger or paladin or oracle.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Darn it, I can't find a rebuttal.
I stand corrected.