Does Fickle Winds create an open or closed cylinder? Do you think the top and bottom are open like a wind wall or is it completely closed so that nothing can get in from any side that it protects against.
This spell pretty much makes archers utterly useless unless it is dispeled.
A few of the lines form the spell are missing, which I assume means it didn't get a good audit like quite a few powerful spells from Ultimate Magic.
I'm not sure what the designer intended. If the cylinder is closed, it basically means any caster with this spell can pretty much beat an archer with a lvl 5 spell no matter how good that archer is. The archer is effectively useless.
Does Fickle Winds create an open or closed cylinder? Do you think the top and bottom are open like a wind wall or is it completely closed so that nothing can get in from any side that it protects against.
This spell pretty much makes archers utterly useless unless it is dispeled.
A few of the lines form the spell are missing, which I assume means it didn't get a good audit like quite a few powerful spells from Ultimate Magic.
I'm not sure what the designer intended. If the cylinder is closed, it basically means any caster with this spell can pretty much beat an archer with a lvl 5 spell no matter how good that archer is. The archer is effectively useless.
Reading it over it mentions cylinder but doesn't give any dimensions or real stats. Given that, all it means is flavor text. The effect of the spell would be a closed cylinder at that point.
As for being useless, the moment you take a pure archer and pit them against a caster with spells properly chosen they lose way more often than not. This is a fantasy game and magic is powerful after all no? Also, any character that is a one trick pony will get shut down if the opponent has the defenses. A solid character will have other options available in the case of an opponent have proper defenses, or at least they should. Otherwise it ends up being a dead character. Any archer who could only sit back and sling arrows was useless from the beginning unfortunately.
Does Fickle Winds create an open or closed cylinder? Do you think the top and bottom are open like a wind wall or is it completely closed so that nothing can get in from any side that it protects against.
This spell pretty much makes archers utterly useless unless it is dispeled.
A few of the lines form the spell are missing, which I assume means it didn't get a good audit like quite a few powerful spells from Ultimate Magic.
I'm not sure what the designer intended. If the cylinder is closed, it basically means any caster with this spell can pretty much beat an archer with a lvl 5 spell no matter how good that archer is. The archer is effectively useless.
Reading it over it mentions cylinder but doesn't give any dimensions or real stats. Given that, all it means is flavor text. The effect of the spell would be a closed cylinder at that point.
As for being useless, the moment you take a pure archer and pit them against a caster with spells properly chosen they lose way more often than not. This is a fantasy game and magic is powerful after all no? Also, any character that is a one trick pony will get shut down if the opponent has the defenses. A solid character will have other options available in the case of an opponent have proper defenses, or at least they should. Otherwise it ends up being a dead character. Any archer who could only sit back and sling arrows was useless from the beginning unfortunately.
This doesn't make the archer useless against only the caster. It makes the archer useless against entire groups. Thus the only way to make the archer active again is to dispel the wind wall effect. And if the enemy is a spontaneous caster, they can keep [i}Fickle Winds[/i] up all day.
I think I'm going to house rule this as a cylindrical-shaped, individual wind wall. Make it harder for the archer to maneuver, but not impossible. I'm all for powerful magic, but I hate seeing characters made entirely useless. I prefer magic that makes life hard on physical damage dealers and is a great defense for casters, but not useless.
Casters already have many, many means to mess up physical damage dealers at high level. But most of them don't guarantee success like [i}Fickle Winds[/i] does against the archer's primary attack.
My preferred build has always been an archer and I don't like the spell any more than you, but the spell is pretty cut and dry. It doesn't list any sort of specifications beyond "a mobile cylinder" and it states that any arrow or bolt will be deflected upward as per Windwall.
However, isn't there a spell/magic enhancement for ranged weapons that allows them to phase through solid objects? It might be from an older edition, but were I the DM in such a situation, I would allow such an attack through.
-Kurocyn
My preferred build has always been an archer and I don't like the spell any more than you, but the spell is pretty cut and dry. It doesn't list any sort of specifications beyond "a mobile cylinder" and it states that any arrow or bolt will be deflected upward as per Windwall.
However, isn't there a spell/magic enhancement for ranged weapons that allows them to phase through solid objects? It might be from an older edition, but were I the DM in such a situation, I would allow such an attack through.
-Kurocyn
Brilliant maybe?
This doesn't make the archer useless against only the caster. It makes the archer useless against entire groups. Thus the only way to make the archer active again is to dispel the wind wall effect. And if the enemy is a spontaneous caster, they can keep [i}Fickle Winds[/i] up all day.
I think I'm going to house rule this as a cylindrical-shaped, individual wind wall. Make it harder for the archer to maneuver, but not impossible. I'm all for powerful magic, but I hate seeing characters made entirely...
Again making the argument that a one trick pony is negated by a spell, proves nothing nor does it mean a spell is somehow too powerful. Even the iconic core archer class (ranger) has a cohort and spells. A simple spell doesn't knock this class off the battlefield, they may not be fully utilizing their most powerful abilities but they are far from useless unless they overspecialized to be a one trick pony. It was a decision to do that, one they will regret if the spell is used. As such they have only themselves to blame for being useless because of one single spell. They made a choice (actually several choices) that allowed for the situation to occur.
The Arcane Archer can, once a day, make a Phase Arrow shot. It goes through non-magical barriers. This spell would still thwart the effect.
Then again, an Arcane Archer can have access to Dispel Magic at that point (in a wand too!).
I don't see this as much of an issue. It's a 5th level spell. 9th level characters and higher.
This is the level where rock-paper-scissors really starts to kick in.
Phantasmal Killer was happening since 7th level, and Slay Living is happening at the same level as this spell.
So the archer is being completely negated from shooting into that specified area. As an alternative, he could take massive damage (avg 51 damage) and simply die instead (no shooting anywhere at all).
If your party (note: you don't need to do everything yourself) doesn't have a response to a spell being devastatingly effective against some of your party members, then you might be a little unprepared for high level combat.
Note that you only need to use Dispel Magic to take it down. I think using 3rd level spell slots to disable 5th level spells is pretty good in terms of a war on attrition (considering also 5th level spells can't be put in wands, but dispel magic can).
The Arcane Archer can, once a day, make a Phase Arrow shot. It goes through non-magical barriers. This spell would still thwart the effect.
Then again, an Arcane Archer can have access to Dispel Magic at that point (in a wand too!).I don't see this as much of an issue. It's a 5th level spell. 9th level characters and higher.
This is the level where rock-paper-scissors really starts to kick in.Phantasmal Killer was happening since 7th level, and Slay Living is happening at the same level as this spell.
So the archer is being completely negated from shooting into that specified area. As an alternative, he could take massive damage (avg 51 damage) and simply die instead (no shooting anywhere at all).If your party (note: you don't need to do everything yourself) doesn't have a response to a spell being devastatingly effective against some of your party members, then you might be a little unprepared for high level combat.
Note that you only need to use Dispel Magic to take it down. I think using 3rd level spell slots to disable 5th level spells is pretty good in terms of a war on attrition (considering also 5th level spells can't be put in wands, but dispel magic can).
It is not a specific area. Fickle Winds is a mobile, individual wind wall that can be cast on one medium target per level. It moves with whoever it is cast on. It doesn't affect their attacks.
And it can be dispeled on one target with a dispel magic and in an area with a Greater Dispel Magic.
It's basically a spell that says don't even bother being an archer because you're now useless after 9th lvl against any prepared party. Not impossible to deal with, but dedicated archers at high level are not going to be happy.
It's basically a spell that says don't even bother being an archer because you're now useless after 9th lvl against any prepared party. Not impossible to deal with, but dedicated archers at high level are not going to be happy.
Like wall of force says don't bother being a melee, or AMF or spell turning say don't bother being a caster??
Point being magic offers counters for all sorts of things, that is why magic is so powerful. Utility. Having the right spells for the right times makes all the difference. Having the wrong spells leaves you useless.
You obviously don't like the spell, we get that. It doesn't mean it is broken or uber powerful because it causes difficulties to a character concept, this is a PnP game where thinking outside the norm is good and adjusting to the situation. Not an MMO where making a spell like this breaks some sacred rule of don't make me useless because of PvP as there are strict defining things you are pigeon holed into.
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Eh.
Fly: This spell pretty much makes melee only characters utterly useless unless it is dispelled. (or they get fly)
Resist Energy: This spell pretty much makes alchemists and fire sorcerers utterly useless unless it is dispelled.
The more specialized a character is the easier it is to neutralize them. Much like a sorcerer with all fire spells, the solution here is to make your character more versatile. I've seen 'switch hitter' builds for fighters and rangers that work fairly well.
It's basically a spell that says don't even bother being an archer because you're now useless after 9th lvl against any prepared party. Not impossible to deal with, but dedicated archers at high level are not going to be happy.
Like wall of force says don't bother being a melee, or AMF or spell turning say don't bother being a caster??
Point being magic offers counters for all sorts of things, that is why magic is so powerful. Utility. Having the right spells for the right times makes all the difference. Having the wrong spells leaves you useless.
You obviously don't like the spell, we get that. It doesn't mean it is broken or uber powerful because it causes difficulties to a character concept, this is a PnP game where thinking outside the norm is good and adjusting to the situation. Not an MMO where making a spell like this breaks some sacred rule of don't make me useless because of PvP as there are strict defining things you are pigeon holed into.
You can smash through a Wall of Force now. Two-handed weapon users can smash through one four or five rounds. A caster can leave if faced with a Antimagic Field. Hardly a guaranteed win in the same way as Fickle winds where you cast that one spell and then it's time to kill the archer. Only a caster can cast Antimagic Field, not a fighter or any of the melee classes.
If you are an archer, you have no way to get rid of Fickle Winds without being a caster and a fairly dedicated one at that.
There used to be limitations to Wind Wall. That's why I didn't mind the spell. This is a closed cylinder, mobile wall that completely renders archery ineffective. Seems like the type of spell that will greatly reduce the number of archers in the game, that is for certain.
Fly is a better comparison than Wall of Force for melee. So I guess this is the casters version of the fly spell for archers.
I'll keep it as is for the moment. If Paizo wants to make archery less attractive, they have certainly created a spell that will do just that. I know the last time I ran my group, the Zen Archer monk did nothing for about six rounds and was bored to tears because of this spell. The casters were too buy dealing with other threats to bring down Fickle Winds and it pretty much rendered him utterly useless against everyone they were fighting because that one spell was able to protect a 9 person group and two of their troll henchmen completely from archery.
Eh.
Fly: This spell pretty much makes melee only characters utterly useless unless it is dispelled. (or they get fly)
Resist Energy: This spell pretty much makes alchemists and fire sorcerers utterly useless unless it is dispelled.The more specialized a character is the easier it is to neutralize them. Much like a sorcerer with all fire spells, the solution here is to make your character more versatile. I've seen 'switch hitter' builds for fighters and rangers that work fairly well.
Better spell examples. I know spontaneous divine casters are often nightmares for arcane casters to deal with with tons of defensive spells, good will and fort saves, and healing.
I'm going to play it as is at the moment given I'm trying to keep my house rules almost non-existent. It should reduce the attractiveness of the archer. It was the most powerful physical damage dealers in most of the games I've run given they can engage the enemy far quicker than the melees and hit just as hard with Deadly Aim. Now there is a ruthlessly strong defense against them.
Protection from Arrows was a joke of an archery defensive spell like stoneskin now for players that know their campaign is going to reach higher than lvl 10.
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I might be willing to say that the arrows of a Large creature are basically javelins and thus subject to the 30% "thrown weapon" miss chance as opposed to the "auto-miss" rule for arrows... but even that would be terribly lenient.
It's a 5th-level spell. It should be powerful. Wind wall is a 2nd-level spell that could be shaped into a circle if the caster desired, potentially shielding an entire army of axe-hurling barbarians and other casters in a similar fashion for a much lower spell slot, with the caveat that its immobile and the aforementioned axe-hurlers have to account for the 30% miss chance.
5th-level is the realm of dominate person. That'll do a whole lot more harm to your archer (who will begin shooting his party members full of holes) than fickle winds will. :)
Sorry for bumping such an old topic, but it saves me making a new one...
Fickle Winds states that any tiny creature caught up in the spell gets blown away and any small creature can't pass through this, so what about medium creatures?
I'm assuming medium creatures can in fact push through this to fight in normal melee combat and I'm also assuming spells can be cast on the opponent in the middle of this spell (who cast it in the first place)?
Fire, I would have thought would be put out with such a strong wind, even if it's cast inside the wind dome, because surely it would suck all of the oxygen out and would melee fighters not suffer a -4 on attacks because of concealment?
I mean it's going to be mightily windy standing in the middle of this, so attacking in the thick of it would surely incur penalties?
I'm only asking because I'll be using a Ranger for the first time as an optional BBEG I've made for Rise of the Runelord's.
Anyway, thanks. :)