If the eidolon is of the Serpentine form and you take the Limbs (Arms) evolution, am I right in thinking that will simply bring the eidolon up to two arms, which would mean for a synthesist to have an eidolon of a Serpentine form they -have- to take that evolution at 1st level or else it causes problems with attacks etc?
As a more tangible example, a player has done just that and plans to model his eidolon on the marilith, but after the first Limbs (Arms) he's given himself Multi-Weapon Fighting. I'm ruling that the eidolon still only has two arms at this point and another evolution would be required before the feat can be taken.
Thoughts?
Honestly, as the GM, it's up to you how it works. There's no specifications. Here's an exchange I had with James Jacobs on his 'Ask me anything thread'.
Leaving it up to the GM couldn't make me happier. The game needs more of that philosophy.Honestly, it's so vague on how to use the archetype that it's pretty much an 'Up to the GM' archetype. Each GM is going to have to make a ruling on each and every eidelon, because how all those evolutions interact with a human body is just going to be confusing.
One GM might rule that you're body is subsumed into the Eidelon, so your eidelon is all that appears, not your body at all.
Another GM might rule it's an amalgam, so if you have a serpent base form, you look like a lamia, a quadruped looks like a centaur, etc.
Another GM might rule that the eidelon is an armor suit that can be pierced and damage the summoner inside.
Fair enough, nice to have a little leeway. I think I'll be going with it as described in my first post as it does seem to be the logical way of doing it based on my image of how the synthesist works.
I'd still like to hear other GMs chime in; how would you rule it in a situation like this?
Fair enough, nice to have a little leeway. I think I'll be going with it as described in my first post as it does seem to be the logical way of doing it based on my image of how the synthesist works.
I'd still like to hear other GMs chime in; how would you rule it in a situation like this?
Honestly,
I prefer to allow all three ways, depending on the summoner. I like this as it gives the most variety and makes summoners different from each other. From your original example, I'd be fine with any of these, I'd just make the Summoner's player pick how his synthesis works at first level and he can't change it (similar to how you can only pick base forms at 1st level).A) Subsumation : The summoner's body is subsumed into the eidelon. He looks like the eidelon. He has to spend an evolution point for arms. This has the advantage that he could be mistaken for a monster rather than a summoner (thus providing some protection from those not in the know to use this against him).
B) Merging : The summoner's body merges with the eidelon's. He takes on the appearance of a lamia type creature, eidelon from the waist down, human from the waist up. He doesn't have to pay for the arms evolution, but it's pretty obvious he's a summoner.
C) Armored : The summoner's body stays bipedal, but it looks like he's wearing a suit of armor, or like he's a monstrous humanoid. The base form is irrelevant with regards to shape, and he doesn't have to spend extra points for arms. The base shape only affects the physical stats he has while merged.
|
Fair enough, nice to have a little leeway. I think I'll be going with it as described in my first post as it does seem to be the logical way of doing it based on my image of how the synthesist works.
I'd still like to hear other GMs chime in; how would you rule it in a situation like this?
I would agree with you entirely.
Honestly,
I prefer to allow all three ways, depending on the summoner. I like this as it gives the most variety and makes summoners different from each other. From your original example, I'd be fine with any of these, I'd just make the Summoner's player pick how his synthesis works at first level and he can't change it (similar to how you can only pick base forms at 1st level).A) Subsumation : The summoner's body is subsumed into the eidelon. He looks like the eidelon. He has to spend an evolution point for arms. This has the advantage that he could be mistaken for a monster rather than a summoner (thus providing some protection from those not in the know to use this against him).
B) Merging : The summoner's body merges with the eidelon's. He takes on the appearance of a lamia type creature, eidelon from the waist down, human from the waist up. He doesn't have to pay for the arms evolution, but it's pretty obvious he's a summoner.
C) Armored : The summoner's body stays bipedal, but it looks like he's wearing a suit of armor, or like he's a monstrous humanoid. The base form is irrelevant with regards to shape, and he doesn't have to spend extra points for arms. The base shape only affects the physical stats he has while merged.
Interesting; I always imagined the synthesist's relationship with his eidolon as looking like someone inside a slightly transparent creature.
Basically, you can clearly make out the summoner, but you can also clearly make out the image of the eidolon; it's almost super-imposed over the summoner's image. Not exactly a clean description but that's how I imagined it.
I like mdt's ruling, but I have to wonder if it'll stand up in PFS.
That's PFS, not Pathfinder RPG. PFS just happens to use a subset of Pathfinder RPG.
[QUOTE="JerkyGunner"
Interesting; I always imagined the synthesist's relationship with his eidolon as looking like someone inside a slightly transparent creature.
Basically, you can clearly make out the summoner, but you can also clearly make out the image of the eidolon; it's almost super-imposed over the summoner's image. Not exactly a clean description but that's how I imagined it.
Also a valid interpretation. I'd say that would be a version of Subsumation.
Also a valid interpretation. I'd say that would be a version of Subsumation.
Indeed, he wouldn't be mistaken as any other creature, but would otherwise be fairly similar.
If the eidolon is of the Serpentine form and you take the Limbs (Arms) evolution, am I right in thinking that will simply bring the eidolon up to two arms, which would mean for a synthesist to have an eidolon of a Serpentine form they -have- to take that evolution at 1st level or else it causes problems with attacks etc?
As a more tangible example, a player has done just that and plans to model his eidolon on the marilith, but after the first Limbs (Arms) he's given himself Multi-Weapon Fighting. I'm ruling that the eidolon still only has two arms at this point and another evolution would be required before the feat can be taken.
Thoughts?
I'd say you are correct in your ruling by what they have given us in the archtype write up, in a strict/RAW point of view. If the intent was that the arms were always there regardless, there should have been mention of a free evolution "arms". If a character chooses something that lacks arms, they are typically getting utility versus combat ability (movement increases or alternate movement types), just like a regular created pet would. If the concern is due to the limited evolution points and "having" to take arms, just mention the feat (extra evolution?) that increases the evolution points so the player can get some wriggle room and still have options right from the start.
That being said I personally don't like how they have taken away the feats and skills away from the eidolon. Basically every other creature in the game besides this archtype eidolon always gets feats and at least 1 skill point. When I get a chance to talk to our dm I think I'm going to lobby for at least the return of feats based on HD, even if it is limited to strictly stat increase type feats (imp nat armor, dodge for ac, imp nat attack, etc), basically things that don't require thought. I was thinking of suggesting every feat just be "extra evolution" but that is probably too much considering they limit it to once every 5 levels RAW. Maybe every other feat be an evolution point and alternate that with a general feat. We will have to hash it out, but I'm fairly certain the dm isn't going to like that corner case exception either, even mindless temporary "creatures" (animate object anyone?) get feats. So odd.