Shakespeare is amazing if you pick him up on your own, but he is not nearly as good when he is being forced on you by a 50+yo man who is desperately trying to live out his youth through you.
As a 40+ yo male high school English teacher, all I can say is...wow. Most (not all, but most) of the English teachers I have known do what we do because we love the literature, the stories, and we want to share that love of stories with others.
I know I teach English in spite of my Junior year English teacher, who spent most of the school year showing us slides of her vacations to England; don't let the bad apples ruin you on the whole bunch, so to speak.
Shakespeare is amazing if you pick him up on your own, but he is not nearly as good when he is being forced on you by a 50+yo man who is desperately trying to live out his youth through you.I could not agree more. Also some of the jokes you just do not "get" as a kid.
Actually, I get a lot of mileage when reading Romeo and Juliet by framing Shakespeare as a dirty old man and explaining the initial scene as locker room talk between two guys (if you have read and understood that first scene, you know what I mean).
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One historical misconception that I haven't seen brought up yet is one of my personal soapbox issues: Columbus did not sail to the Americas to prove the world was round! No, no, no, NO!
Columbus wanted to sail east to reach the Indies because he (obviously) had no idea that the Americas existed, and his insane calculations made the Earth out to be about 1/3 of its actual size.
He couldn't get anyone to finance his idea, until 1492. Ferdinand and Isabella, having just pushed the Moors out of Spain and apparently having money on their hands, said "why not" and history was made.
Had the Americas not been there for Columbus to stumble onto, he would have died trying to cross a space twice as big as the Pacific Ocean. But he did not sail with the idea of trying to prove the world was round. There might have been some backwards rutabaga farmer in Germany who still thought the world was flat in 1492, but most everyone else accepted it as a spherical object.
Sorry if I sound a little strident, but I have had this discussion with a number of people who should know better (including my daughter's 7th grade history teacher). Aargh.
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I agree. But if you ask most christians, the church of Ethopia is heretical. As is the Greek, Russian, and Roman Catholic Orthodoxy. (Where's the eye roll?) I have had this argument over and over again. Last time I had this argument, it was with the pastor of the church my USED to go to. I've never stepped in there, but yet they ostracized her because of me.So what's Biblical isn't in the Bible either, except where it is. :) The ancients didn't have neat and tidy ideas that the Bible as a whole was divinely-inspired and/or that it was alone in being so inspired. Even late in canon formation several popular extra-canonical works appear to have had both considerable popularity and some degree of theological influence over various species of proto-orthodoxy.
The past is messy enough that it's defied persistent attempts to clean it up.
I always get confused by religious discussions, but isn't Catholocism the most popular branch of Christianity? And therefore 'most chrisians' would not regard it as heretical?
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Yeah, my experience with the novel was outside of school. I can't imagine what I would've done if I'd've been assigned it for class. Well, actually, I can: I wouldn't have read it, like I did with every other book my Jr. English teacher assigned. School sucks!
Amen to that. The problem with assigning classics to high school kids is that 99% of kids that age lack the life experience needed to make the classics even vaguely relevant to them. I'm glad I waited until I was a lot older, with a lot more water under my personal bridge, before I tried tackling Moby Dick or Walden.
Absolutely wonderful observation.
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I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?I have heard that too. What is funny about that though is the staff of Moses with the twisted copper serpents on it, used to heal. Sounds a lot like the wand of Mercury to me. Also keep in mind that there were many serpent cults, including Isis, if I remember, in the Mid east. Mairkurian would be the one best able to actually answer these questions. Double PHD in the study after all.
I was responsible for security of the Hatra ruins in 2005-06. There's a ginormous statue of Isis in a temple dedicated to her. She's holding a coiled serpent in each outstretched hand, and the Hermetic snakes form a crown. Originally, there was a natural spring, now dry, in the temple and people apparently came from very far away to be healed there. I'll dig up some pictures later.
I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?
After referencing the six or so pages devoted to the serpent in my dictionary of symbols, I found no direct references to wisdom. Here's an interesting passage:
The demonic implications of the serpent are exemplified in Tuat, [an Algerian desert region] whose evil spirits are portrayed as snakes; however, these-- like the vanquished dragon-- may be mastered, controlled, sublimated and utilized for the superior purposes of the psyche and the development of mankind...
Like I said, there's a lot more, mainly because there's a lot of varied symbolic import put on serpent imagery.
Oddly, snakes seem to be associated with many female deities.
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Here's a question I've had but been too lazy to look up:
Is all that Arabian Nights stuff take place in a pre-Islamic Arabia?
'Cos they don't seem congruous with what little I know about the theology of Islam.
Here is what the so called civil religious discussion typically turns into. Once you understand that, then you can see my reluctance to continue.
Also to note, Patrick is not a Christian.
Many of the Arabian Knights stories I have been told are quite analogous to several of the stories in The Grimms Tales. I will have to check my copy to see which ones.
Oh and they are mainly Persian from what I recall.
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I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?After referencing the six or so pages devoted to the serpent in my dictionary of symbols, I found no direct references to wisdom. Here's an interesting passage:
The demonic implications of the serpent are exemplified in Tuat, [an Algerian desert region] whose evil spirits are portrayed as snakes; however, these-- like the vanquished dragon-- may be mastered, controlled, sublimated and utilized for the superior purposes of the psyche and the development of mankind...Like I said, there's a lot more, mainly because there's a lot of varied symbolic import put on serpent imagery.
Oddly, snakes seem to be associated with many female deities.
Which makes one wonder about Eve and the Serpent story.
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Actually, I get a lot of mileage when reading Romeo and Juliet by framing Shakespeare as a dirty old man and explaining the initial scene as locker room talk between two guys (if you have read and understood that first scene, you know what I mean).Shakespeare is amazing if you pick him up on your own, but he is not nearly as good when he is being forced on you by a 50+yo man who is desperately trying to live out his youth through you.I could not agree more. Also some of the jokes you just do not "get" as a kid.
I had a teacher point that out to me once. Between that, and finding out the ages of the cast, it changes your whole perspective on that play.
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Here's a question I've had but been too lazy to look up:
Is all that Arabian Nights stuff take place in a pre-Islamic Arabia?
'Cos they don't seem congruous with what little I know about the theology of Islam.
Here is what the so called civil religious discussion typically turns into. Once you understand that, then you can see my reluctance to continue.
Also to note, Patrick is not a Christian.
Many of the Arabian Knights stories I have been told are quite analogous to several of the stories in The Grimms Tales. I will have to check my copy to see which ones.
Oh and they are mainly Persian from what I recall.
The introduction to my copy agrees that the stories are Persian and pre-Islam, but weren't recorded until the caliphate, so a few of the tales make reference to the Prophet or to Islam in the same way Beowulf, recorded under the monastics, makes reference to the Lord and Christianity.
Which makes one wonder about Eve and the Serpent story.I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?After referencing the six or so pages devoted to the serpent in my dictionary of symbols, I found no direct references to wisdom. Here's an interesting passage:
The demonic implications of the serpent are exemplified in Tuat, [an Algerian desert region] whose evil spirits are portrayed as snakes; however, these-- like the vanquished dragon-- may be mastered, controlled, sublimated and utilized for the superior purposes of the psyche and the development of mankind...Like I said, there's a lot more, mainly because there's a lot of varied symbolic import put on serpent imagery.
Oddly, snakes seem to be associated with many female deities.
I think snakes were regarded as chthonic forces, or in literature as symbols of chthonic forces. I call Vergil "The Snake Guy" because Aeneid has about a million scenes involving snakes, including one in which a snake rises from the bowels of the Earth and slithers over the tomb of Anchises. For a more modern take on this idea, check out DH Lawrence's poem "Snake."
I think also that snakes were associated with Minerva, whose portfolio included wisdom. After the serpents kill Laocoon in Book 2 of Aeneid, for example, they slither up to Minerva's temple in Troy.
Here's a question I've had but been too lazy to look up:
Is all that Arabian Nights stuff take place in a pre-Islamic Arabia?
'Cos they don't seem congruous with what little I know about the theology of Islam.
At east a few of the ones in my translation are set as far away as China. Of course, they're meant to be exotic distances from the readership.
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Here is what the so called civil religious discussion typically turns into. Once you understand that, then you can see my reluctance to continue.
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Here is what the so called civil religious discussion typically turns into. Once you understand that, then you can see my reluctance to continue.Possibly apropos.
+1
What contemporary European writings are there about him?
The crusaders definitely would have heard of him once the Mongols turned west into Central Asia and present-day Iran, so maybe one of the chroniclers in the crusader-states might have mentioned them in passing. (That is a complete shot in the dark, btw.)
I'm pretty sure the Hungarians in particular would have described the Mongols as villains earlier than 200 years after Genghis Khan's death, though. On account of them getting their asses handed to them by an advance army on a couple of occasions. Same for chroniclers in the various Turkish-ruled kingdoms in the Middle East.
To get away from religion...
Did you know that it wasn't until 200 years after Ghengis Khan died that the mongols became villians? Contemporary writings (both in Europe and in Asia) actually hail him as a hero.
The Japanese didn't consider him a hero. It was only the 'kamikaze' winds that prevented two invasion attempts by Ghengis, as the mongol military technology exceeded Japan's at the time.
I guess its whose contempory writing it belongs and whose reading it, I suppose.
GP
excellent point, and one that I ran into a lot while tutoring and in school. Yea, Shakespeare is amazing if you pick him up on your own, but he is not nearly as good when he is being forced on you by a 50+yo man who is desperately trying to live out his youth through you.Yeah, my experience with the novel was outside of school. I can't imagine what I would've done if I'd've been assigned it for class. Well, actually, I can: I wouldn't have read it, like I did with every other book my Jr. English teacher assigned. School sucks!Amen to that. The problem with assigning classics to high school kids is that 99% of kids that age lack the life experience needed to make the classics even vaguely relevant to them. I'm glad I waited until I was a lot older, with a lot more water under my personal bridge, before I tried tackling Moby Dick or Walden.
In my experience the problem isn't the teacher, but with the student. When I went from high school to college I wasn't much better and might have seen things through the students eyes - not understanding the teachers point of view. So I left college, joined the army and grew up a little. Then I went back to college and discovered how stupid students and unknowing students really are. I found myself agreeing with the teachers almost entirely.
Not that there aren't bad teachers out there - there certainly are. By and large most teachers are overwhelmed with bad students. Not the other way around.
GP
Here's another badass from the Asiatic steppes.
He's not as well remembered as the Msrs. Khans, but he raised hell in his own day.
Pffft. Genghis Khan wasn't that tough.
In my experience the problem isn't the teacher, but with the student. When I went from high school to college I wasn't much better and might have seen things through the students eyes - not understanding the teachers point of view. So I left college, joined the army and grew up a little. Then I went back to college and discovered how stupid students and unknowing students really are. I found myself agreeing with the teachers almost entirely.
Not that there aren't bad teachers out there - there certainly are. By and large most teachers are overwhelmed with bad students. Not the other way around.
GP
I love reading and learning, I just don't like paying $1000 to attend a bookchat group.
I also believe that college is becoming, if it hasn't been for some time, something of a racket.
The only people my age who are somewhat prosperous right now are those who dropped out of college to go work at UPS or in the trades. The ones who stuck it out at college and became lawyers or whatever are just scraping by, worrying about how they're going to pay off their student loans.
School sucks!
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In my experience the problem isn't the teacher, but with the student. When I went from high school to college I wasn't much better and might have seen things through the students eyes - not understanding the teachers point of view. So I left college, joined the army and grew up a little. Then I went back to college and discovered how stupid students and unknowing students really are. I found myself agreeing with the teachers almost entirely.
Not that there aren't bad teachers out there - there certainly are. By and large most teachers are overwhelmed with bad students. Not the other way around.
GP
I love reading and learning, I just don't like paying $1000 to attend a bookchat group.
I also believe that college is becoming, if it hasn't been for some time, something of a racket.
The only people my age who are somewhat prosperous right now are those who dropped out of college to go work at UPS or in the trades. The ones who stuck it out at college and became lawyers or whatever are just scraping by, worrying about how they're going to pay off their student loans.
School sucks!
** spoiler omitted **
UK perspective. Most of my wealthy friends are working based upon university success. Biochemists, Medical Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers... Humanities degress don't seem to go that far. I'm doing pretty well as a teacher though and I know copywriters who've done pretty well for themselves.
That said, if you're only going to further education to enhance your job prospects then you're missing out on much of the purpose and many of the opportunities of further education.
I don't really know anything about US education though.
One guy wants to get into construction, but his family feels like it's just a step above working the drive-thru at Mickey-D's. That it's the last resort for ex-cons, illegals, and those who don't have any skills what-so-ever.
The greater Boston metropolitan area is littered with construction workers who easily made a million dollars off the Big Dig. Union-pay + Overtime x A decade or so = Beaucoups bucks. Whether they still have the dough or blew it all on percs and oxycontins, well, that's another story.
I wish I had gone into construction.
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Anyway, on an unrelated note, I found this site while surfing and thought of this thread.
The blog looks like it's been done for four years, but there's good reading in them archives.
I don't really know anything about US education though.
Two words: Crippling Debt.
Or
Trust Fund.
Your parents pick for you.
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Here is what the so called civil religious discussion typically turns into. Once you understand that, then you can see my reluctance to continue.
Weirdly enough, I've never seen this happen. Maybe I'm just a crazy person.
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Here is what the so called civil religious discussion typically turns into. Once you understand that, then you can see my reluctance to continue.Possibly apropos.
I agree with this comic. However, this doesn't need to be brought up here. There's a time and a place for arguing, and this ain't it.
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I love reading and learning, I just don't like paying $1000 to attend a bookchat group.
I also believe that college is becoming, if it hasn't been for some time, something of a racket.
The only people my age who are somewhat prosperous right now are those who dropped out of college to go work at UPS or in the trades. The ones who stuck it out at college and became lawyers or whatever are just scraping by, worrying about how they're going to pay off their student loans.
Damn right on all counts. I'm taking a break from my degree program to get some job training in the trades, and after I graduate in three semesters, it's off to trade school. And I've got a wall-sized bookcase full of reading material.
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We've made such a big deal out of going to college here, that it's hurt us. There's a kind of social stigma attached to not going to college. We're raised and taught that we should do what we enjoy, yet if we do just that people look down on you if you don't have a college degree. We're a money driven society. We've defined success by what we have in our house not by what we have in our lives.
I love building things; working with my hands. And I'm happy doing that. Outside of allergies, I really haven't been sick in years. I know guys who went to college, have really good paying jobs but are so stressed out and sick all the time. Even their vacations aren't vacations because they take their laptops and work with them.
Right now, I've gone back to school full-time so I can recover from a work accident. My degree has zero to do with my career, but I'm doing it because I love the subject matter. There are people in my class who have no idea what degree they want to pursue and are only doing it because it's something expected of them. One guy wants to get into construction, but his family feels like it's just a step above working the drive-thru at Mickey-D's. That it's the last resort for ex-cons, illegals, and those who don't have any skills what-so-ever.
+1,000
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I don't really know anything about US education though.Two words: Crippling Debt.
Or
Trust Fund.
Your parents pick for you.
I picked options C and D simultaneously: C being borrow from family "investors" that I will later pay back, and D being living very uncomfortably for a while and saving money. And I guess being pretty consistently employed from the age of 14 onwards helped.
I'm one of the exceptions to the rule, though.
excellent point, and one that I ran into a lot while tutoring and in school. Yea, Shakespeare is amazing if you pick him up on your own, but he is not nearly as good when he is being forced on you by a 50+yo man who is desperately trying to live out his youth through you.Yeah, my experience with the novel was outside of school. I can't imagine what I would've done if I'd've been assigned it for class. Well, actually, I can: I wouldn't have read it, like I did with every other book my Jr. English teacher assigned. School sucks!Amen to that. The problem with assigning classics to high school kids is that 99% of kids that age lack the life experience needed to make the classics even vaguely relevant to them. I'm glad I waited until I was a lot older, with a lot more water under my personal bridge, before I tried tackling Moby Dick or Walden.In my experience the problem isn't the teacher, but with the student. When I went from high school to college I wasn't much better and might have seen things through the students eyes - not understanding the teachers point of view. So I left college, joined the army and grew up a little. Then I went back to college and discovered how stupid students and unknowing students really are. I found myself agreeing with the teachers almost entirely.
Not that there aren't bad teachers out there - there certainly are. By and large most teachers are overwhelmed with bad students. Not the other way around.
GP
Still, most arguments in this game usually try to shift 90+% of the onus upon one party or the other. It's better to say that there are some people who should not be teaching such things to people so much younger than they, as well as that there are some young people whose minds cannot handle this material until they get older- if at all. My wife is highly intelligent, yet continues to hate Shakespeare for the most part, although she loved Shakespeare In Love.
In my experience the problem isn't the teacher, but with the student. When I went from high school to college I wasn't much better and might have seen things through the students eyes - not understanding the teachers point of view. So I left college, joined the army and grew up a little. Then I went back to college and discovered how stupid students and unknowing students really are. I found myself agreeing with the teachers almost entirely.
Not that there aren't bad teachers out there - there certainly are. By and large most teachers are overwhelmed with bad students. Not the other way around.
GP
I love reading and learning, I just don't like paying $1000 to attend a bookchat group.
I also believe that college is becoming, if it hasn't been for some time, something of a racket.
The only people my age who are somewhat prosperous right now are those who dropped out of college to go work at UPS or in the trades. The ones who stuck it out at college and became lawyers or whatever are just scraping by, worrying about how they're going to pay off their student loans.
School sucks!
** spoiler omitted **
It's been a racket for quite some time, my friend. I paid my way through my undergraduate and still have yet to do my graduate, much to my wife's dismay. Still, I can't help but feel like I dodged a bullet, although if I want to get more money out of any job, it's time for me to take my place in front of the firing squad.
We've made such a big deal out of going to college here, that it's hurt us. There's a kind of social stigma attached to not going to college. We're raised and taught that we should do what we enjoy, yet if we do just that people look down on you if you don't have a college degree. We're a money driven society. We've defined success by what we have in our house not by what we have in our lives.
I love building things; working with my hands. And I'm happy doing that. Outside of allergies, I really haven't been sick in years. I know guys who went to college, have really good paying jobs but are so stressed out and sick all the time. Even their vacations aren't vacations because they take their laptops and work with them.
Right now, I've gone back to school full-time so I can recover from a work accident. My degree has zero to do with my career, but I'm doing it because I love the subject matter. There are people in my class who have no idea what degree they want to pursue and are only doing it because it's something expected of them. One guy wants to get into construction, but his family feels like it's just a step above working the drive-thru at Mickey-D's. That it's the last resort for ex-cons, illegals, and those who don't have any skills what-so-ever.
Indeed, this is what truly holds back this country(US). Just because college is not for you does not mean that there is something wrong with you- it's just not for you.
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My favorite Bible misinformation is the story of Jonah.
In Genesis only reference to this is: Jonah was in a great fish. Whereas nowhere else in that same verse is Jonah near the ocean.
Didn't see this get full treatment, but the story of Jonah was quite clear. Jonah was, according to the book of Jonah, on a ship to Tarshish, which is out on the Iberian peninsula. This puts him right in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, which does indeed have a lot of fish.
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I had a teacher point that out to me once. Between that, and finding out the ages of the cast, it changes your whole perspective on that play.Actually, I get a lot of mileage when reading Romeo and Juliet by framing Shakespeare as a dirty old man and explaining the initial scene as locker room talk between two guys (if you have read and understood that first scene, you know what I mean).Shakespeare is amazing if you pick him up on your own, but he is not nearly as good when he is being forced on you by a 50+yo man who is desperately trying to live out his youth through you.I could not agree more. Also some of the jokes you just do not "get" as a kid.
So, anyone else hear about how Shakes-a-spear was bisexual? (That is, whether or not it's true?)
So, anyone else hear about how Shakes-a-spear was bisexual? (That is, whether or not it's true?)
It would be extremely difficult for us to determine absent him being so kind as to tell us, which he was not. He did marry very quickly, possibly to make Anne Hathaway an "honest woman" as was common right up into the 50s for any lady that got pregnant. Shakespeare moved away from her to London fairly early on, which could be read as a signal of deliberate estrangement but also wouldn't be unusual for a man trying to advance his career at the time. If he was like most men of the era, he probably slept around on her while there.
Was he into guys in addition to, or instead of, women? Maybe. He wrote a lot of love sonnets addressed to a male subject, which might have been intended just for himself or for as special friend or two but got published anyway and perhaps without his permission. Whether this is erotic love or simple affection can be extremely hard to determine. Up until the past century, it was very common for even the straightest of men to use rather gushy, romantic language to refer to their male intimates. The second edition to the sonnets, published when the Bard was feeding worms, flipped the male pronouns to female which admits that even back then people wondered.
Personally my guess is he was probably bisexual since it's a bit hard to believe that a guy even from the uninhibited Elizabethan era would write such homoeroticism without having at least some personal interest in the subject matter.
It would be extremely difficult for us to determine absent him being so kind as to tell us, which he was not. He did marry very quickly, possibly to make Anne Hathaway an "honest woman" as was common right up into the 50s for any lady that got pregnant. Shakespeare moved away from her to London fairly early on, which could be read as a signal of deliberate estrangement but also wouldn't be unusual for a man trying to advance his career at the time. If he was like most men of the era, he probably slept around on her while there.
Which brings us to a whole truckload of historical assumptions.
Well, we'll have to hope he uses his time travel machine to come to Earth in our lifetimes.
... or that the Department of History brings him to us -- Cf. Clifford Simak's The Goblin Reservation.
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Well, we'll have to hope he uses his time travel machine to come to Earth in our lifetimes.... or that the Department of History brings him to us -- Cf. Clifford Simak's The Goblin Reservation.
No, see, that was a metaphorical-like time machine. Everyone knows that time machines don't exist.
Shut up, Christopher Marlowe!
I'd watch myself if I were you, Gark. Christopher Marlowe doesn't take no shiznit.