Ultimate Magic: Eidolon Evolution Clarification

[Magirus]

The Head Evolution is a very welcome addition, but there are some ambiguous combinations:

Bite: I assume your bite only applies to one head, that you can take it more than once, applying to a new head, and that if you take it twice for a given head you can make it str-and-a-half.

Trip: Its not clear if this would apply to all bite attacks? Or only to a single attack. (My inclination is that it applies to all bite attacks, similar to Rend, although a counter-example would be Poison, or Push).

Channel Resistance: Less a clarification, more of a question. Why require the Undead Appearance evolution for this? It is possible (although unlikely), that you might face an opponent with Alignment Channel.

[Avianfoo]

As with many other summoner questions: its the GM's call since many can go either way.

Here follow some of my guesses:

Extra head/Bite:
It does not actually say that you can take 2 bite attacks if you have two heads. I am sure that is what is intended, but as written it does not specifically state that. Nowhere does it say you can take gore/breath weapon evolutions more than once. Bite does state that if you have a bite attack (like from having quadruped form) you can take the bite evolution to make it do more damage.

But as GM I would allow 1 bite/gore/breath weapon per head and if you take bite again for a specific head, you would gain the str-and-a-half. This seems to be the intent behind the head evolution.

Trip:
Again this can go either way. I would say it works only on a single bite attack. But some GM's might say it works with all your bite attacks.

Rend:
This gives you a single extra damage rend no matter how many claws you hit a target with. I don't believe it would give extra rend damage per pair of claws that connect. And you cannot take it more than once anyway.

Channel Resistance: Ask your GM to waive the restriction if its necessary. But as written it's clear the intent is against anti-undead channeling.

[thepuregamer]

Avianfoo wrote:

Rend:
This gives you a single extra damage rend no matter how many claws you hit a target with. I don't believe it would give extra rend damage per pair of claws that connect. And you cannot take it more than once anyway.

Actually, eidolon's rend is written differently than the rend listed in the bestiary. There is no once per round limitation on eidolon rend. You can rend more than once as an eidolon. Pounce is another eidolon ability that functions differently than normal. A regular pounce allows you to also make your rake attacks at the end of the charge. A eidolon pounce only allows a full attack(no rakes) at the end of a charge. I have no idea why they couldn't just use the original ability text.

[Avianfoo]

Rend wrote:

Rend (Ex): An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon's Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.

It could be read both ways again. It does not say "...makes at least two successful claw attacks..." nor does it say "...for every..." or "...for each two successful claw attacks...".

I would rule only one rend per round because of that is clearly how it was intended to work.

I do agree with the pounce observation though.

[thepuregamer]

It does say, "whenever" the eidolon successfully makes two claw attacks.

There is no way to construe whenever as once per round. to be honest, I think the intent of these abilities is to let them function as the original ones did. So an eidolon with rake should be getting his rake on a pounce. But they are written differently, so I think intent is a moot point unless one plans on applying the intent across the board.

[Avianfoo]

If we go as written, and apply rules lawyery-ness, you can only have 2 successful claw attacks in one round once, since any beyond that would be 3 and 4 successful claw attacks. Who said you are allowed to count only in twos? :p

But I agree. Both these should just be as written in the bestiary. If druids can get them then so should my eidolon.

[Omelite]

Avianfoo wrote:

As with many other summoner questions: its the GM's call since many can go either way.

Here follow some of my guesses:

Extra head/Bite:
It does not actually say that you can take 2 bite attacks if you have two heads. I am sure that is what is intended, but as written it does not specifically state that. Nowhere does it say you can take gore/breath weapon evolutions more than once. Bite does state that if you have a bite attack (like from having quadruped form) you can take the bite evolution to make it do more damage.

But as GM I would allow 1 bite/gore/breath weapon per head and if you take bite again for a specific head, you would gain the str-and-a-half. This seems to be the intent behind the head evolution.

It's not just intent, it's directly stated that you can take multiple bites, gores, or breath weapons.

Quote:

but the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon).

Edit: I suppose you might be interpreting that RAW it's saying you could take a bite on one head and then a gore on another, but you're already allowed to take a bite and gore with just one head, as far as I was aware, so it's not "allowing" you to do anything in that case. (and since it says it's allowing you to do something, that can't be what it does)

[thepuregamer]

Avianfoo wrote:

If we go as written, and apply rules lawyery-ness, you can only have 2 successful claw attacks in one round once, since any beyond that would be 3 and 4 successful claw attacks. Who said you are allowed to count only in twos? :p

But I agree. Both these should just be as written in the bestiary. If druids can get them then so should my eidolon.

Yeah, I won't argue against too much against it as I would be more inclined to just treat all eidolon abilities like they appear in the bestiary.

Though I think the multi-headed 1 1/2 str mod bite build could be cool.