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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the published materials don't seem to address what to do when a PC picks a feat or spell before they qualify for it for free.
For example, if an oracle with the Bones mystery adds Cause Fear to her known spells at 1st level, what happens when she reaches 2nd level and gets Cause Fear as her bonus spell?
The solution would seem to be, once she reaches 2nd level, to let her pick another 1st-level spell of any type - now consider Cause Fear as her bonus spell, and give her a free choice to replace the spell she picked at 1st level.
The reason I ask, is because a PC might be DISinclined to choose an option that adds flavor to their class, mystery, etc. because they can get it for free later. It seems to invite metagaming to the detriment of flavor. As a houserule, I'm inclined to allow them a "free choice" when they qualify for the bonus later on.
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People need to be a bit more flexible when going for flavor. If they want the feat before it's given, then they're choosing to pay for having it early.
Except that's an incentive not to go for flavor.
For spells, definitely offer a free choice. In the end, it makes no difference what order you got your spells. It does matter what order you get your feats, due to prerequisites, but I'd offer a choice anyways; I doubt it could be abused significantly.
People need to be a bit more flexible when going for flavor. If they want the feat before it's given, then they're choosing to pay for having it early.Except that's an incentive not to go for flavor.
For spells, definitely offer a free choice. In the end, it makes no difference what order you got your spells. It does matter what order you get your feats, due to prerequisites, but I'd offer a choice anyways; I doubt it could be abused significantly.
Except when you allow them the choice, that completely removes the flavor. Why would an elemental sorcerer get a spell like arcane missile or color spray at 3rd level instead of burning (or whatever element you choose) hands? Giving the choice there completely removes the flavor of having that elemental bloodline and cheapens it down to just getting a free spell at said level.
Except when you allow them the choice, that completely removes the flavor. Why would an elemental sorcerer get a spell like arcane missile or color spray at 3rd level instead of burning (or whatever element you choose) hands? Giving the choice there completely removes the flavor of having that elemental bloodline and cheapens it down to just getting a free spell at said level.People need to be a bit more flexible when going for flavor. If they want the feat before it's given, then they're choosing to pay for having it early.Except that's an incentive not to go for flavor.
For spells, definitely offer a free choice. In the end, it makes no difference what order you got your spells. It does matter what order you get your feats, due to prerequisites, but I'd offer a choice anyways; I doubt it could be abused significantly.
Except that sorcerer bloodlines ruin the flavor all on their own. To use your example, why would an elemental sorcerer specializing in fire magic want to wait for level 5 for scorching ray? Most other sorcerers, if they like to deal damage, will take scorching ray at level 4 and wizards will have it at level 3. What is the flavor reason that a wizard specializing in fire magic would get scorching ray at level 3 and a sorcerer specializing in fire magic would get it at level 5?
Ultimately it is going to be a house rule. (And one that I use in my group.) There is nothing that says you can sub out the feat or spell for something else later in the rules that I am aware of. But it makes good RP sense and is balanced over time so is a common rule zero option.
Since the spell or feat they took early was something they could legally choose it is not like they are trying to game the system.
*sigh*
The system devs have already indicated their preference for such things.
You have to look no further than their changes to skills and skill points. There was a big push by Paizo to change things so you did not need to keep track of what level someone took something or boosted some stat. The idea being that three characters who made exactly the same multiclassing options and feat selections should be indistinguishable at the same level.
Example, Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2. Assuming all skill points spent, HD rolls, and feat selections are the same, then there should be no difference between the character that went F/F/S/S, S/S/F/F, S/F/F/S, F/S/S/F, etc. Now, I grant that if you grant max hp at first level there will be a slight difference (2 hp), but in general, the idea is to be the same.
If someone was making a level 5 Bones Oracle, it should not even be asked if he took a spell early and lost one. He has X number of spells. As long as the spells chosen are valid for 5th level.
In the OPs example, if he takes a bonus spell early, then he should get another spell at the same time he would get that one as a bonus.
There is playing by RAW, and then there is 'Zero Tolerance' RAW. When you do zero tolerance, just like in real life, you are doing it so you don't have to think or use your brain or common sense (and yes, this is done in government, especially schools, so people don't have to think, they can just spout 'Thems the rules', similar to the Firefighters and Police in Alemeda who stood around watching a guy drown because it was 'against policy' to go into water).
EDIT : To the OP, you're doing just fine. Any irritation above is not directed at you.
Except that sorcerer bloodlines ruin the flavor all on their own. To use your example, why would an elemental sorcerer specializing in fire magic want to wait for level 5 for scorching ray? Most other sorcerers, if they like to deal damage, will take scorching ray at level 4 and wizards will have it at level 3. What is the flavor reason that a wizard specializing in fire magic would get scorching ray at level 3 and a sorcerer specializing in fire magic would get it at level 5?Except when you allow them the choice, that completely removes the flavor. Why would an elemental sorcerer get a spell like arcane missile or color spray at 3rd level instead of burning (or whatever element you choose) hands? Giving the choice there completely removes the flavor of having that elemental bloodline and cheapens it down to just getting a free spell at said level.People need to be a bit more flexible when going for flavor. If they want the feat before it's given, then they're choosing to pay for having it early.Except that's an incentive not to go for flavor.
For spells, definitely offer a free choice. In the end, it makes no difference what order you got your spells. It does matter what order you get your feats, due to prerequisites, but I'd offer a choice anyways; I doubt it could be abused significantly.
For spells, there are rule for swapping out known spells for other ones. So you take Scorching ray as your first 2nd level spell (at 4th level), you gain it again at 5th level as your bonus spell. When you hit 6th level, you have the option to swap it out, so you "forget" one and replace it with something else. Yes, at 5th level you will know one less spell then other sorcerers your level, but then again you have been incinerating people with rays a level earlier then other elemental sorcerers.
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The solution would seem to be, once she reaches 2nd level, to let her pick another 1st-level spell of any type - now consider Cause Fear as her bonus spell, and give her a free choice to replace the spell she picked at 1st level.
Your assessment is pretty much dead on and you are already using the ideal solution.
You might as well add "Skill Points spent before Versatile Performance" to this list. ;)
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For spells, definitely offer a free choice. In the end, it makes no difference what order you got your spells. It does matter what order you get your feats, due to prerequisites, but I'd offer a choice anyways; I doubt it could be abused significantly.
When they're still grabbing their "joe schmoe" feats at 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. level (and not their bonus feats), prerequisites can still apply. That should prevent players from exploiting the houserule.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the published materials don't seem to address what to do when a PC picks a feat or spell before they qualify for it for free.
For example, if an oracle with the Bones mystery adds Cause Fear to her known spells at 1st level, what happens when she reaches 2nd level and gets Cause Fear as her bonus spell?
The solution would seem to be, once she reaches 2nd level, to let her pick another 1st-level spell of any type - now consider Cause Fear as her bonus spell, and give her a free choice to replace the spell she picked at 1st level.
The reason I ask, is because a PC might be DISinclined to choose an option that adds flavor to their class, mystery, etc. because they can get it for free later. It seems to invite metagaming to the detriment of flavor. As a houserule, I'm inclined to allow them a "free choice" when they qualify for the bonus later on.
By RAW you don't get to switch them out.
I think leaving the bonus slots open to choosing a 2 or 3 spells if possible with a certain theme would have been better.With that said I might let a player do it, but inform them that it was against the rules so they don't expect for another GM to allow it.