Creative Director
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About how tall is the cliff on average?
And about how tall at its tallest and shortest height (where are they?)?
And how tall is it around the more well known sites: Kaer Maga, Storval Stairs, Skull Crossing, etc.?
Thanks guys!
The Storval Rise varies along its length; at places its' only a few hundred feet high (such as at the Storval Stairs), but in others it's over a thousand feet high or higher (Kaer Maga's at over a thousand). I'm pretty sure we haven't said where the lowest or highest points are, but the Storval Stairs are probably among the lowest points.
Skull's Crossing isn't technically on the rise, though—it's in the mountains, and the cliff doesn't really run through the mountains—it's only on either side.
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So, 300 to 1300 feet is a good estimate. Low for the Storval Stairs, high for Kaer Maga.
I'd be safe telling my PCs that if they choose a random spot in the wilderness that it's gonna be common to find an 800' rise or 600 to 1000 feet.
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Kaer Maga:
So, the waterfall that begins the Yondabakari River is over 1000 feet tall? Even if that's a couple miles from Kaer Maga -- that's gotta be loud, not to mention climate affecting for Kaer Maga.
Is there something I'm missing?
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Creative Director
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So, 300 to 1300 feet is a good estimate. Low for the Storval Stairs, high for Kaer Maga.
I'd be safe telling my PCs that if they choose a random spot in the wilderness that it's gonna be common to find an 800' rise or 600 to 1000 feet.
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Kaer Maga:
So, the waterfall that begins the Yondabakari River is over 1000 feet tall? Even if that's a couple miles from Kaer Maga -- that's gotta be loud, not to mention climate affecting for Kaer Maga.Is there something I'm missing?
Nope. The waterfall near Yondabakari is indeed loud. I tried about a bazillion times to get James Sutter to include that waterfall as part of the city's geography, but he resisted, damn his eyes! Note also that I'm not sure the cliffs at Kaer Maga ARE 1,000 feet tall. The places I checked (Pathfinder #3's gazetteer and City of Strangers and the Inner Sea World Guide) weren't all that forthcoming about it.
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Thanks for everything.
As it turns out I've only got the same sources you checked, AP#3 and the Inner Sea Guide -- I read the Kaer Maga book in my LGs and remember that it's got nothing.
I was hoping you (or someone else) may have an idea that's not in those sources, or maybe an idea that hasn't yet been published and made official.
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Not that this is anything official, but I have always imagined Kaer Maga to be at least 1'000 feet high. Actually my impression was that the cliffs were around 3,000 feet high at that point. I thought this would be in keeping with the colossal theme of Varisia and Thassalonia. I also thought that the cliffs might be 3,000 feet, because of the length of time I thought it took Eando Kline to ascend the twilight stairs
Now I understand that the illustration on page 52 of the City of strangers is not to scale, and the illustration shows that the cliffs are honeycombed with chambers and caverns, my impression would be that the cliff rise would be at least 1,000'.
I have just looked up Eando Kline’s Journal in the Hook Mountain Massacre. He notes that Kaer Maga is 1,000 feet above the plane below, and that Kaer Maga's walls are 80' high on page 72 of the Hook Mountain Massacre
Well, I think its better that the writers don't define everything. This leaves room for us to monkey with things a bit.
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Thanks everyone!
I've got an idea about it all, now. I had always pictured the cliff to be more like 3 or 4 hundred feet high so this really helps me get it "right"(?)
As far as the Yondabakari Falls, another way to rule it, other than like Angel Falls, is that the canyon it has created has made the drop, say, 500 feet -- having created a 500' deep canyon.
I had always arbitrarily decided that "the rock in the Cinderlands is MUCH denser (or whatever) than that of Arizona so the river has only cut maybe 50 feet or so of a Canyon." Thus the natural geography isn't so impressive.
But at 1000 feet -- that waterfall would be so huge that it would HAVE to affect Kaer Maga, even at 10 miles away.
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Creative Director
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I have just looked up Eando Kline’s Journal in the Hook Mountain Massacre. He notes that Kaer Maga is 1,000 feet above the plane below, and that Kaer Maga's walls are 80' high on page 72 of the Hook Mountain Massacre
Well, I think its better that the writers don't define everything. This leaves room for us to monkey with things a bit.
Actually, having Eando Kline set the distances at 1,000 feet cliffs and 80 foot walls pretyt much IS the writers defining everything. And it makes me relieved that my memory of how high the cliffs there was accurate, in any case!
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Creative Director
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How wide is the river at the point of the falls?
As wide as the GM wants. We haven't said in print. And since I don't have the time right now to work out the science of how a 1,000 foot high waterfall might or might not affect the climate of a city 6 miles away, I'm not comfortable nailing down that width right now.
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How wide is the river at the point of the falls?As wide as the GM wants. We haven't said in print. And since I don't have the time right now to work out the science of how a 1,000 foot high waterfall might or might not affect the climate of a city 6 miles away, I'm not comfortable nailing down that width right now.
The Upper Yosemite Falls is 1,430 ft. Nearby Bridalveil is 670 ft. However, the most powerful North American falls are the Niagara Falls, at only 167 ft.
To be honest, I wouldn't expect the climate to be affected that much. Lakes will matter more than streams in the air.
I live in Central NY (just west of syracuse), I grew up in Buffalo, and I work throughout the finger lakes and adirondack/catskills/hudson region.
Niagara Falls has very little effect on climate more than a few thousand feet away.
Taughannock Falls near Ithaca, NY (higher than Niagara) has almost no effect on the climate.
Now, the Great Lakes (Erie and Ontario in this case) have a MASSIVE effect on climate. Things like Remsen getting 13 feet of snow in one day while a town 20 miles away gets 1 foot. (And around here, less than 2 feet isn't a storm...it's a Tuesday)...
Even the Finger Lakes ( being narrower but much, much deeper at some points...there used to be a submarine base in Seneca Lake...I think its still there) can effect climate a lot more. Being on different shores changes how much rinfall you get and how it falls.
Interestingly, the Thruway (route 90) alsoe effects the climate. It's warmer than the surrounding land and creates updrafts, On many blizzardy days, the snow ends at the thruway (if I can just get south of 90, I'm home free).
Add in the hills and mountains, and you get places where there is 6' of snow in your driveway, but if you go to the attic you can see green grass a few miles away...
Oh, and Syracuse gets a lot more snow than Buffalo, despite the reputation...
Large bodies of water have a much greater effect than the aformentioned "rivers in the air"...
Now, right near the falls, yes, there would be some environmental impact....
I lived in Ithaca for many years and Taughannock Falls is a local landmark, but it certainly doesn't have any impact on the climate around there that I know of. Beyond the gorge that actually contains the waterfall, obviously.
An interesting thing about the fall is that the way in which it has carved out such an impressive gorge is not by erosion. Rather, in winter the water vapor from the fall seeps into cracks in the surrounding rocks, and freezes, thus expanding and weakening or bringing whole chunks of rock down. This doesn't happen very often, but it's interesting that the gorge is not formed by the water just wearing things down, for the most part.
I suspect that this is related to the rock around there being mostly shale, which has a planar structure, allowing these cracks to form fairly easily.
The chief effect of the Finger Lakes is that they moderate the climate tremendously. Winters are not nearly as harsh in Ithaca, and springs arrives quite a bit earlier, than ten or fifteen miles from the lake.
Like any tall falls, Taughannock does tend to "ice" thins over nearby (wihtin a few hundred feet) when the wind is blowing the right way, but I doubt it has any effects at all on Ithaca, which is someting like 8 miles away.
But it is a cool waterfall.
When the wind is blowing from the west, snow near the finger lakes gets interesting.
The Windward side of the lake tends to get less snow, but there is some drifting due to the effects of the glacier-formed hills and valleys. You'll get lots of areas with 1' of snow and then come across a 4' drift across the road 100 yards away...
The downwind side of the lakes, especailly the smaller lakes like Owasco and Skaneateles, can get hammered with snow.
For those who haven't been to CNY, the finger lakes are glacial, basically water-filled valleys with tall hills on either side. They tend to run North-South. What this means is that you have long, relatively narrow, fairly deep lakes.
Seneca and Cayuga are about 2-5 miles across and ~30 miles long.
Otisco, Owasco, Skaneateles, Canandaigua are all in the 5-17 mile length and 1-2 miles across. Keuka is the "y" shaped lake.
Like any lake, when wind blows across the lake, it picks up moisture. But beause of the sharp rise on either side, the winds drop down to the lakes, pick up some moisture, and then hit the far side and have to drop some of that moisture to get over the hills. As a result, the downwind side gets hammered harder.
Any lake with a steel incline will get this sort of thing.
Its even more severe on the east end of Lake Ontario, where the Adirondacks and Tug Hill Plateau suddenly rise up only a few miles from the Lake. This is why places like Remsen, Booneville, Watertown, Adams, and Mexico NY get record snowfalls. But if you go NORTH, places like Messina and Ogdensburg, get less snow, because there aren't as steep rises nearby. Though I've been there when they get hit pretty hard too.
What all this means is that in a temperate climate, lakes can have a HUGE effect on the local climate...around here "Lake Effect" is a type of snowstorm. One you plan on missing work for...
I hope this helps...
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So perhaps the Yondabakari Falls looks something like Takakkaw Falls?
Or, if it's a higher volume fall, we could use Kaieteur Falls as an example.
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Creative Director
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So perhaps the Yondabakari Falls looks something like Takakkaw Falls?
Or, if it's a higher volume fall, we could use Kaieteur Falls as an example.
Kaieteur Falls matches what I envisioned visually more closely than Takakkaw.
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Or would you like still more volume?
Here are the Jog Falls. That's about the limit for this volume and height in the real world.
Or would you like still more volume?
Here are the Jog Falls. That's about the limit for this volume and height in the real world.
I can't imagine the Cinderlands are going to get THAT much precipitation :P I think we're looking more like Yosemite Falls than anything.
Also as mentioned above, a waterfall isn't going to have much effect on climate other than an increase in local humidity. Large bodies of water like big lakes and seas will have a big effect.
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So perhaps the Yondabakari Falls looks something like Takakkaw Falls?
Or, if it's a higher volume fall, we could use Kaieteur Falls as an example.
Considering there is a trade road cut near the falls of the Yondabakari I think they're a series of falls rather than one giant fall. It's a slower safer journey than risking the Darklight Path. Notice too that the numerous streams that flow from the lake inside (and below) Kaer Maga make falls that pour out of the carved faces in the cliffs (as in the illustration)
--Vrockslide area ahead
Or would you like still more volume?
Here are the Jog Falls. That's about the limit for this volume and height in the real world.
I can't imagine the Cinderlands are going to get THAT much precipitation :P I think we're looking more like Yosemite Falls than anything.
Also as mentioned above, a waterfall isn't going to have much effect on climate other than an increase in local humidity. Large bodies of water like big lakes and seas will have a big effect.
Actually, you'd be surprised how much water runs into a river or stream.
My uncle has a place in the Catskills that has a small stream as the main water source. (We're talking only 500 acres and a stream about 3' wide and less than a foot deep overall, the stream probably drains an area less than a mile on a side...there are other waterways.)
But when it rains even a little bit, even in that small area, the stream swells to 10' across and a few feet deep. For days. Even a small amount of rain will swell streams and rivers and keep them flowing for a very long time. And thats assuming that there are no springs to feed the river as well (look at Austin texas, which has a spring fed river).
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Yeah.
Those mountains out east gotta produce LOTS of snow melt. And I think pretty much all of the western-face snow melt goes to the Yondabakari.
Even if the Cinderlands gets an inch per year or something frighteningly dry, the river's gotta have lots of water during the Spring and early Summer months.
It really changes the way one looks at the Cinderlands peoples if there's a big river cutting it in half.
Yuk.
I think I will Houserule that most of the snow melt finds its way underneath the surface to the near-underdark. That would make a much smaller river in the Cinderlands (so the Shoanti don't treat it like the Nile) and create cool little underground waterways that punch through the cliff making a series of treacherous waterfalls (like that scene at the end of Temple of Doom).
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It really changes the way one looks at the Cinderlands peoples if there's a big river cutting it in half.
Yuk.
Nah, I imagine it like a sooty, dirty Egypt. Lots of water and life near the river, and almost nothing off it. (Well, more than that, with all the nasty Cinderland predators, and the animals for them to munch on, and the plants - but I never saw the river as any reason to ignore the "ash-tundra" feel what I've read about the Cinderlands has given me.
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I think I will Houserule that most of the snow melt finds its way underneath the surface to the near-underdark. That would make a much smaller river in the Cinderlands (so the Shoanti don't treat it like the Nile) and create cool little underground waterways that punch through the cliff making a series of treacherous waterfalls (like that scene at the end of Temple of Doom).
That's kinda what I was thinking. I was just pointing out that surface run-off would create nothing like the tropical monsoon falls that folks were posting. Even the coastal stuff is going to be bigger than a desert river. I'm thinking the Yonda- would be more like the Colorado River which is a decent river. Heck, it has water year round which is rare for my home home region of the SW US, but has nothing like Niagara falls.
btw we also have monsoon here which can be quite a deluge, but it is very short lived.