Ok, so I made sense of the Werewolf's CR, but now I have a friend that has wondered why the Pathfinder werewolf is +1 CR when he has no HD like the 3.5 Werewolf did...
So, I said the +2 Wis and the other bonuses when you change equal +1 CR, but then he was like "Yes, but how is that figured now?"
SO... anyone that fully explains the monster creation rules able to dissect the werewolf template for us?
So, not to "bump" per se, but it's been awhile and no answers to my question, so I thought I'd... well... bump it. :(
Actually the 3.5 werewolf has the higher CR by 1.
pathfinder:
Lycanthrope, Werewolf
This muscular creature has a man's body but the snarling head and fur coat of a wolf.
WerewolF CR 2
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature or base animal (whichever is higher) + 1.
3.5:
Werewolf
Challenge Rating:3
Level adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural).
Actually the 3.5 werewolf has the higher CR by 1.
pathfinder:
Lycanthrope, WerewolfThis muscular creature has a man's body but the snarling head and fur coat of a wolf.
WerewolF CR 2
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature or base animal (whichever is higher) + 1.
3.5:
Werewolf
Challenge Rating:3
Level adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural).
RIght, but how is the +1 CR figured into it with Pathfinder? Why is the werewolf template +CR 1 and not +CR 2, 3 or even 0?
Pretty much what Wraithstrike said. Don't forget while in lycanthrope forms (hybrid or animal) you also get stuff like DR/Silver, low-light vision, and some other nice abilities above and beyond what a normal creature might get.
Here's a wererat from a game of mine. You can probably look it over and see where lycanthropy made him stronger.
Wererat Spy (Hybrid) CR 2 (600 XP)
Human natural wererat warrior 3
Medium humanoid (human, shapeshifter)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +2
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AC 20 (+4 armor, +4 dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat 16
Hp 22.5 (3d8+6)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +3; DR 10/Silver
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Speed 20 ft (30 ft)
Melee Mwk Greatsword +9* (2d6+10) w/ Power Attack, Bite +2 (1d4+2 plus disease and curse of lycanthropy)
Ranged Club +7 (1d6+5)
Disease (Ex) Filth fever: Bite;injury; save Fort DC 14; onset 1d3 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Dex damage and 1d3 Con damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.
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Str 20, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 5
Base Atk +3, CMB +8, CMD 22;
Feats - Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Skills - Acrobatics +4, Climb +9, Intimidate +1, Stealth +6; Check Penalty -2
Languages - Common
SQ change shape (human, hybrid, and dire rat), lycanthropic empathy (rats and dire rats)
Equipment - mwk greatsword, club x5, chain shirt, potion (enlarge person), acid flask x 3, 200 gp in stolen goods, and a mysterious note.
RIght, but how is the +1 CR figured into it with Pathfinder? Why is the werewolf template +CR 1 and not +CR 2, 3 or even 0?Actually the 3.5 werewolf has the higher CR by 1.
pathfinder:
Lycanthrope, WerewolfThis muscular creature has a man's body but the snarling head and fur coat of a wolf.
WerewolF CR 2
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature or base animal (whichever is higher) + 1.
3.5:
Werewolf
Challenge Rating:3
Level adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural).
The PF werewolf does not give as much as the 3.5 version. You get HD in 3.5 along with other things. HD leads to feats, skill ranks, possible ability score increases, BAB increase, base save increases. Bumping BAB is a powerful thing.
I will also add the generating CR is not an exact science. A template may be a +1 CR to one monster, but not do a lot for another monster. As to your specific question you get improved AC, improved physical stats, DR 5 which is pretty good, and you can change shape allowing you to kill someone in one form then change to another to get away. You can also change form to fight in whatever form is more advantageous to you.
A CR 2 is a pretty big step. If you got a big increase in physical ability scores then I would see a +2 CR increase, but the pathfinder ones are big enough to warrant an increase, not enough to make an easy fight go into very difficult territory.
Ok, thanks.
So then one more question... does the werewolf PC get a free level between 2 and 3, removing the CR completely, or does that not happen since you do that a # of times equal to half the CR rounded down, which means 0? The minotaur example works for high CR monsters, but leaves this confusion (to me at least) for CR 1-2 monsters.
Ok, thanks.
So then one more question... does the werewolf PC get a free level between 2 and 3, removing the CR completely, or does that not happen since you do that a # of times equal to half the CR rounded down, which means 0? The minotaur example works for high CR monsters, but leaves this confusion (to me at least) for CR 1-2 monsters.
I am not understanding the question completely.
I will try to explain it from what I think you said.
If you come into the game as a level 1 character and you get the template then you are now a level 2 character, and you should start with the XP of a level 2 character. You would got to level 3 at the same time as everyone else, but instead of having 3 class levels you have 2 class levels + the template.
If the GM is starting the others off at level 1 then he should reconsider and give them something to make them a level 2 character also.
PS: The monsters as PC rules are really suggestions since some monster abilities were not meant for players. The DR and ability to change shape will always be useful. The ability score increases will not matter as much at later levels. By the book you should get your level when everyone is between levels 2 and 3to level 2 or 3, but I would hold off until 5 since you will still have a DR and shapechanging, and these are things that are not easy to come by for a PC without multiclassing and a lot of gold.
PS2:The rules you ask about are for monsters with racial HD. The template does not add racial HD, but it is covered on the page.
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.
This coincides with my bolded suggestion up top.
Ok, thanks.
So then one more question... does the werewolf PC get a free level between 2 and 3, removing the CR completely, or does that not happen since you do that a # of times equal to half the CR rounded down, which means 0? The minotaur example works for high CR monsters, but leaves this confusion (to me at least) for CR 1-2 monsters.
I am not understanding the question completely.
I will try to explain it from what I think you said.
If you come into the game as a level 1 character and you get the template then you are now a level 2 character, and you should start with the XP of a level 2 character. You would got to level 3 at the same time as everyone else, but instead of having 3 class levels you have 2 class levels + the template.
If the GM is starting the others off at level 1 then he should reconsider and give them something to make them a level 2 character also.PS: The monsters as PC rules are really suggestions since some monster abilities were not meant for players. The DR and ability to change shape will always be useful. The ability score increases will not matter as much at later levels. By the book you should get your level when everyone is between levels 2 and 3to level 2 or 3, but I would hold off until 5 since you will still have a DR and shapechanging, and these are things that are not easy to come by for a PC without multiclassing and a lot of gold.
PS2:The rules you ask about are for monsters with racial HD. The template does not add racial HD, but it is covered on the page.
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.This coincides with my bolded suggestion up top.
Ah ok so the free levels to offset the CR only applies to monsters with HD? Cause the GM (and I agreed somewhat at the time) interpreted it as the free levels are a TOTAL of half the CR rounded down, so a CR +1 would never get any free levels at all.
I have to agree that the werewolf seems a lot stronger than most CR 2 creatures, especially in terms of its AC and DR, and it wouldn't feel out of place as a CR 3 creature.