All right, so right off the bat I want to say that I understand that the last set of Orb spells from 3.5E were not exactly the most balanced spells in the game. However they did give wizards and sorcerers a few nice options for single target blasting and their ability to cover several different energy types with little additional effects was fairly cool. With that in mind, I wanted to try my hand at creating a new spell with Ultimate Magic and Orb spells seemed a good way to do that--largely due to the similar nature of each of the spells, meaning I only had to make some small changes to each and could produce a bunch of spells at once.
I am interested in whether or not these seem well balanced against each other and other spells of their level. Especially the Force Orbs because I had no idea how I could make them interesting beyond their ability to do force damage--and even then, I wonder why anyone would take the lesser version I built when there is Magic Missile beyond the fact that it would not be stopped by Shield. Let me know what you think because after some discussion I hope to present them to my gaming group and see them in the next campaign we are starting in a month or so!
Thank you for your time,
Onion
Oh and if anybody has any suggestions for a site other than Rapid Share for a way to get the file online, I would be happy to have them!
So..
Overall, I like them and I appreciate a lot the Evocation School and SR: yes.
I fear Reflexes partial is not an elegant mechanic: it screws both Evasion and Stalwart. Does it already exist?
I would increase the penalty of the cold orbs by 10 additional feet at level X.
I wonder if a touch attack 5d6 is not too much for a level 1 spell - but is borderline and neligible, schorching ray is level 2..
The Reflex for partial was originally meant for the Acid Orb spells, I had it in my head that that would be a way to represent shaking the acid off. I think it got into the cold spells by way of copy-paste fail. *chuckles* Sorry about that. However, it seems like it would be better to change the Acid Orbs to being a Fortitude save for partial, along with Cold, Electricity, and Sound all remaining Fort for partial. Thoughts?
Better.
I'm not sure about the damage output of thr accid ones - even if I find the idea awesome. But should be right.
I have no further concern or criticisms.
are you going to update the changes and post?
Sure, I will get that up. Seemed like a small change to go reloading, but I guess that saves some people from retreading the same ground when they read it.
Sure, I will get that up. Seemed like a small change to go reloading, but I guess that saves some people from retreading the same ground when they read it.
just FYI, the regular 3rd level orbs are missing the 0 in the 10d6 part.
just FYI, the regular 3rd level orbs are missing the 0 in the 10d6 part.
The file is updated and I am shamed. *sob* Thank you for the catch, Fnipernackle!
For the fire orbs, how about also d6 damage and a reflex save or catch fire?
And for the force orbs, fortitude save or be knocked prone. I think this is not too strong but just enough to make them more interesting.
For the fire orbs, how about also d6 damage and a reflex save or catch fire?
And for the force orbs, fortitude save or be knocked prone. I think this is not too strong but just enough to make them more interesting.
That is interesting, because I considered both of those options, but there was something that stopped me in each case. With the orbs of fire, I wanted to distinguish it from the acid orbs. (Which, when I originally wrote them, were a Reflex save instead of a Fortitude save.) So I figured I would just up the damage die. As for force orbs, I did not want to invalidate the Toppling Spell metamagic feat from Ultimate Magic, which is very similar. That said, I still kind of like those ideas. Anybody else want to chime in on these thoughts?
That is interesting, because I considered both of those options, but there was something that stopped me in each case. With the orbs of fire, I wanted to distinguish it from the acid orbs. (Which, when I originally wrote them, were a Reflex save instead of a Fortitude save.) So I figured I would just up the damage die. As for force orbs, I did not want to invalidate the Toppling Spell metamagic feat from Ultimate Magic, which is very similar. That said, I still kind of like those ideas. Anybody else want to chime in on these thoughts?
Catching on fire is a nice mechanic that never gets used in spells. So, even though environmental rules state that you usually don't catch fire from instantaneous spells you can make an exception here.
Orb of Fire
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one orb of fire
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yes
You blast your target with a small orb of fire, making a ranged touch attack that deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6). Targets struck by Orb of Fire must immediately make a reflex save (dc = spell dc) or catch on fire taking additional 1d6 points of fire damage per round on their turn. The fire lasts for 1 round per caster level, maximum 10 rounds. Targets that catch on fire are also dazzled.
A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.
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Since catching on fire is pretty weak I've added another minor effect - dazzled. It even makes sense. :)
You might wanna consider not adding this mechanic to a first level version though.
Catching on fire is a nice mechanic that never gets used in spells. So, even though environmental rules state that you usually don't catch fire from instantaneous spells you can make an exception here.
Orb of Fire
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one orb of fire
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yes
You blast your target with a small orb of fire, making a ranged touch attack that deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6). Targets struck by Orb of Fire must immediately make a reflex save (dc = spell dc) or catch on fire taking additional 1d6 points of fire damage per round on their turn. The fire lasts for 1 round per caster level, maximum 10 rounds. Targets that catch on fire are also dazzled.
A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.----------------------------------
Since catching on fire is pretty weak I've added another minor effect - dazzled. It even makes sense. :)
You might wanna consider not adding this mechanic to a first level version though.
Okay, now that is a cool idea! All right, so what do you all think about hard capping the duration of the burn at five turns, with scaling damage based on the version of Orb of Fire? Something like 1d4 for Lesser, 1d6 for the standard, and 1d8 for Greater? In addition to the dazzled effect, of course, because that fits well and gives it a bit of a controller feel.
Another idea would be letting the burn persist for a number of rounds equal to the caster level, with a maximum number of burning rounds capped equal to the damage cap for that version of the spell. Also probably keeping the burn damage to just being a d6, rather than scaling.
Also, what about the reflex save getting harder based on the spell level. Something like what Hansi suggested, where the target falls prone and gets to take a reflex save, with a +4 bonus against the lesser orb, +2 against the standard orb, and no bonus against the greater form? Jumping into water, or getting drenched, would be immediate success, that makes sense.
Something that came to me this morning, what if the movement reduction of Cold Orbs got better or worse in particularly hot or cold environments? Something like a bonus to the save or the movement penalties being increased or reduced by five feet? Maybe even both, I guess.
Thoughts?
i wouldnt make them do better or worse in different environments.
i do think that it is a good idea to have an extra effect but only for the normal and greater versions, not the lesser.
i think depending on the effect the saves should be fortitude or reflex (reflex against fire, fortitude against cold).
i think the effect should last for a number of rounds equal to the spells level. d6 each round for added damage for the fire.
i do agree with the version that Hans posted. it offers a reflex save to stave off the added effect. it DOESNT need to halve the damage, since you have to make a ranged touch attack. the lesser versions should offer no save since you have to make a ranged touch attack.
as for the orb of force, make the added effect a bull rush. your CMB would be your caster level plus a set strength amount the spell dictates that scales with the improved versions (i.e. 16 for the lesser, 18-20 for the normal, 22-24 for the greater, or something like that.)
any chance we could see your file updated with these changes and a 0 for the normal spells cap? i cant seem to figure out how to edit a pdf without paying for a subscrition.
All right, here is the most recent version of the .pdf, with the new additions to the Fire Orbs and the Force Orbs as well as the corrections to the level three orbs. Let me know what you all think!
Acid orbs are SLIGHTLY more strong but nothing I would make me cringe.
PLS nerf Force Orbs. at least, damage as a d4.
Otherwise, 3d6 / 6d6 / 10d6.
Force is unbelievabily stronger than elements, this must be addressed.
All right, here is the most recent version of the .pdf, with the new additions to the Fire Orbs and the Force Orbs as well as the corrections to the level three orbs. Let me know what you all think!
i love em.
idk bout nerfing the force spells. i mean, yes nothing resists force so i can see dumbing down the damage to d4's, and keeping the bull rush. the bull rush doesnt increase with the higher level orb spells like the other orbs do, and i think thats what makes the force orbs balanced.
and i think the orbs of acid are fine.
great job overall. let us know what you think about the force orbs and if you update the pdf again.
I am not sure if I want to change the damage on the Force orbs, because I find that they are not really any better than the Sound orbs. Deafened is only a so-so condition to afflict on somebody, it gets a couple of bonuses against some rather specific monsters, and nothing really resists it either. Compared with the Force orbs, which nothing really resists, can send an enemy sliding around a little bit, and has no condition at all.
Thanks for all of your help guys, I will be sending these along to my DM soon to see what he thinks. Feel free to post any further thoughts and suggestions!
Profecy: players choosing orb of force only will make you change your mind.
After seeing what an archery-based ranger and a two-handed weapon fighter can dish out in terms of raw damage, I think it will be all right. xD
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i do think that it is a good idea to have an extra effect but only for the normal and greater versions, not the lesser.
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+1 to this.
Orb of Sound should *really* be given to Bards. Tapping into the primal essence of song? Right up their alley.
You should consider removing secondary effects from first level versions if you want to keep them in line with already published material.
These spells are already more powerful than a shocking grasp, which is a normal touch 1d6/level with no secondary effect. Granted, shocking grasp is a bad spell but keeping it in line with what's already there is a good idea.
I agree with Cheapy. Orb of sound should be given to bards.
While I didn't like removing the first level effect from just one of the Orbs, removing them from all of the orbs seems more than fair.
As for adding Orb of Sound to the Bard list, I agree; I have been focusing more on getting the spells themselves balanced and didn't think to throw it onto his spell list. Should a Bard get them at the same levels (1, 3, and 5) as a Wizard? I am not as familiar on his spell progression.
Here is the newest version of the file, as always let me know what you all think about it! Updated!