I was having a discussion with a long-time friend and fellow DM the other day about the D&D cosmology (in its various incarnations, from the early bare-bones Aristotelian model to the current contending visions of Pathfinder and 4e) and how he saw big chunks of it as useless, unvisitable territories of doom and nothingness, while I insisted on the charm of having places where normal -or even heroic- characters are not supposed to go.
The discussion about how "playable" the cosmology is maybe goes as far back as the original Manual of the Planes, when players were first properly introduced to entire universes composed of nothing more than flames or vacuums that extend forever. To some, the planes should be accessible somehow, and thus dislike the idea of these realms were survival is, at best, almost impossible; to others, it just makes sense for them to be like that and adds to the mystery and wonder of the planes.
Personally, I like my cosmology to be dangerous and consistent within its own crazy paradigms: The Elemental Planes should not be welcoming to players, because they are the sources of the fundamental forces of the cosmos and just as you don't get it easy in the Earth's core, you shouldn't get it easy in the Plane of Fire; the Abyss should have unknown depths were characters are lost forever from merely thinking about them; there shouldn't be a need to populate the Negative Energy Plane with themed creatures so it is not an endless emptiness -it should be an endless emptiness!
What's your take, and how do you transport it to the Great Beyond?
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I like the idea of "lots of planes" out there that The Great Wheel presents.
And Planescape does a great job of really showing how, at whatever level -- high or low -- PCs can adventure outside of the Prime Material.
I never used the Great Wheel; the idea of Zeus or King Arthur or Hachiman being part of D&D was always incredibly dumb to me. Incredibly dumb. But I used the old Manual of the Planes and my favorite 1E book, Deities and Demigods to gradually design a Homebrew cosmology, adjusted occassionally as products from the 90s (such as Sargent's Monster Mythology & the Planescape Boxed Set) and 00s (such as the Fiendish Codixes) influenced and inspired me.
Now the hardest thing I have to do is figure out how, for example, Pharasma can fit in my Homebrew cosmology and still be Pharasma.
So, while it doesn't really address the Planes-by-design-"too-powerful-for-PCs" consversation, I'm glad of the development of The Great Wheel and Planescape and it's by-design finite yet infinite playability model. If that makes sense.
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I try to leave them to be exotic places for crazy vision quests or rare "jump in and do something, then GTFO before its too late" places.
Planescape was entertaining as a setting, but wasn't something I think that was sustainable in the long-term, like a Drow game, or a Psionics-themed games. Some are just not long term games. YMMV
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My take on the planes? The moment somebody casts plane shift, we do the following:
- drink 0,25l of vodka,
- smoke something that isn't tobacco,
- drink 0,25l of vodka mixed with whiskey,
- fire up some tribal music, run around the table chanting,
- take some relaxation meds,
- crack out some DiTerlizzi artwork,
- fire up the Planescape: Torment soundtrack
At that point we're ready to go planar.
I think the Great Beyond is not designed for mortal use. This doesn't mean that mortals don't adventure or live there, but it's not made for us. We get the material plane. Venturing beyond is for heroes and crazy people. Or crazy heroes, especially.
I grew up on 1st edition, and for me as a DM, the outer planes were crazy / wierd / all out dangerous and only the high level or insane would willingly go there. To go there and come back in one piece was unlikely in the extreme, with the operative word being 'extreme.' So I have to say I was very disappointed when Planescape brought 1st level adventures into the planar fold. I get why - it was a campaign setting, so needed to be welcoming to newbies, but, to me, that was just wrong. Whether you were 'clueless' or not (or whatever awful cringeworthy jargon it was) I simply ruled that the further realms of existence were not a place that low level characters could go and expect to survive. To turn it into a home from home with added wierd seemed to me a colossal failure of imagination. Either it should be alien, inexplicable and deadly, or 'normal' enough that you wouldn't immediately go insane, but still a place that no-one below mid-high level could survive. Any low level character (say below 4th or so) who accidentally got catapulted through some planar trap or rift really wouldn't be returning in time for Christmas, other than as a stomach lining in something the local wizard might summon.
Sorry, what was the original question? Oh yes; well, I think I agree with the OP. Mystery and wonder should be the key words. That feeling that one is balancing on the edge of madness just by taking in the view.
My notion of the planes is very much a child of 2e Planescape (perhaps odd for someone who didn't get into D&D till 3e). I favor a vision of the planes where they're manifest landscapes of wonder and beauty, terror and madness. They exist for a reason and have underlying purpose, not just to be the extraplanar dungeons for high level characters or crazy people to visit. There might be a lot of higher level mortals and crazy people out there, but likewise it might also make sense to have lower level mortals dwelling on or visiting those planes that it makes sense for them to venture (ie those not utterly inimical to life, or with inhabitants who slurp down their souls like candy).
But it need not remain locked away behind a sword archon holding up a glittering metallic hand and telling us that we must be at least as high in numerical level as the inches his hand is off the ground. It has to make sense within its own context, but not lock things away behind an arbitrary limitation. But it's never safe, and its never normal.
That's just my take on the matter, and there are multiple takes (often heavily inspired by the paradigm of the planes at the time you got into the game).
My notion of the planes is very much a child of 2e Planescape (perhaps odd for someone who didn't get into D&D till 3e). I favor a vision of the planes where they're manifest landscapes of wonder and beauty, terror and madness. They exist for a reason and have underlying purpose, not just to be the extraplanar dungeons for high level characters or crazy people to visit. There might be a lot of higher level mortals and crazy people out there, but likewise it might also make sense to have lower level mortals dwelling on or visiting those planes that it makes sense for them to venture (ie those not utterly inimical to life, or with inhabitants who slurp down their souls like candy).
But it need not remain locked away behind a sword archon holding up a glittering metallic hand and telling us that we must be at least as high in numerical level as the inches his hand is off the ground. It has to make sense within its own context, but not lock things away behind an arbitrary limitation. But it's never safe, and its never normal.
That's just my take on the matter, and there are multiple takes (often heavily inspired by the paradigm of the planes at the time you got into the game).
My view is close to this as well. Really, my view on the planes is sort of complex, ever-evolving, and not very well pinned down. While I'm likely to run a higher-level planar game than not, that's based on my own interest in higher level (say, 6+) games than lower ones, not specifically a planar issue. There are, after all, low-CR planar monsters. So unless the landscape itself is physically hostile, there's no reason a game can't be put on the planes with 1st level characters. They just don't run into balors any more than they'd run into ancient red dragons on the prime.
I think the planes are usually dangerous (even the good/neutral ones). But, like when they visit Hell in What Dreams May Come, the danger isn't always physical.
But it need not remain locked away behind a sword archon holding up a glittering metallic hand and telling us that we must be at least as high in numerical level as the inches his hand is off the ground. It has to make sense within its own context, but not lock things away behind an arbitrary limitation. But it's never safe, and its never normal.
That's more or less my take on it. There is no reason why there shouldn't be tons of CR 1/2 monsters on all the planes. Many of which can't use planeshift as a spell-like ability. They're stuck there doing the bidding of the higher level creatures, or they stay out of their way. Either way.
IMO, the planes should be very survivable for low-level characters, if they wind up trapped there. However, their lack of specific knowledge about the planes could get them killed. In the same way a Ifrit would die if it walked into an ancient dragon's cave on its first trip to the material plane. Someone from the material plane would know to stay away from that cave; someone from a different plane probably wouldn't know that.
If someone did a single plane indepth (not just an overview book of all the planes but a gazetteer of one plane) and published support material for it, there is no reason, IMO, why a game can't start from level 1.
If a Prime found themselves stranded on one of the Elemental planes, he'd be screwed if he didn't have a heck of a lot of magic to adapt to the innately hostile environment. A low-level prime might survive in the Lower Planes for at least a while, provided he landed in a place that wasn't immediately lethal in environment, and managed to only encounter lower-level threats like lemures or fiendish rats or such. Not a healthy environment by any means, but more hospitable than the Elemental planes. The various heavens are generally pretty hospitable.
Ultimately, most every plane is home to somebody. Even the ones that are unquestionably deadly to the unprepared human are places where society of some kind exists, just a different kind and with different participants than we might be used to.
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I like the comments about landing on another plane without knowing anything about what you are going to face. It reminded me of Charles Stross' post on how habitable Earth really is -
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/10/how_habitable_is_the_ea rth.html
The short answer is "not very".