I am building a human rogue from 1st level and the campaign will run through around 15th level. I am trying to decide between Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree and the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack feat tree. Some info on the character:
Stats (at 1st): 15 point buy
Str - 12
Dex - 18 (+1 at 8th and 12 lvl)
Con - 13 (+1 at 4th lvl)
Int - 10
Wis - 10
Cha - 10
I do not feel I can dump Int (b/c of skills/magic rogue talents), Wis (b/c of perception and will saves) or Cha (because of skills, esp. UMD). So I am pretty firm in on this stat array.
Feats (at 1st):
-Weapon Finesse
-Improved Initiative
I am also set on a melee rogue.
I like the flexibility and flavor of the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack feat tree. With the TWF style, I would essentially be standing beside the enemy pouring on full attacks...which seems dangerous and less interesting tactically. But, I am concerned about my melee damage potential if I go with a the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack feat tree, since I would often be limited to a single skirmish attack. Another big question with the skirmish approach is the relative difficulty of setting up and maintaining flank.
I do not require a completely maxed out DPR, but I want to at least be able to take some chunks out of the bad guys.
I have also thought of going with TWF early (lvls 2-7 or 9), until I can pick up Spring Attack. It would mean "burning" a feat on TWF early and I do not know if that is worth it.
Suggestions? Opinions? Revelations?
If you decide to go spring attack the one way that would be worth it would be getting the scout arcytype which lets you sneak attack on the charge at level 4 but it replaces uncanny dodge. I know this will be painful at 1st level but you can be better later on with getting dodge at level 1. I do then would get at level 2 the finese rouge talent to get weapon finese. get mobility at third level and then use the rouge talent that will give a combat feat to get spring attack. This way you are pulling off spring attacked charges at 4th level. For a weapon I think you would have to use a rapier at first as the best weapon.
I would go scout archetype.( I would also go strength, to be fair. Half-elf with the Ancestral Arms feat. You don't need Dex for anything but Reflex, Init, and AC, so it'd be a secondary stat. Basically just swap Dex and Str.) But...
Assuming you stay Dex, this is what it looks like.
1: Dodge, Mobility
3: Step Up
5: Following Step
7: Spring Attack
9: Step Up and Strike
When you get your 8th level archetype ability, it makes things get real.
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves
more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action,
the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was
flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this
turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with
uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability
replaces improved uncanny dodge.
So, every time you spring attack, you'd get a sneak attack. Every time an enemy five-foots away from you, you can move 10 feet to follow them and take an attack that is a sneak attack. If you don't spring attack, you can move ten feet near to an enemy and stand there-- anyone who provokes from you before the start of your next turn gets a sneak attack. You could even get some use out of intimidate, goading people into provoking.
If you were going strength, I'd use a longspear for the reach. You never need to flank unless you want to. But... since you're going Dex, it's obvious that short sword is pretty much the best weapon.
This could give you a lot of combat mobility. Spring attack in, attack. An adjacent enemy five-foot-steps away, follow and strike. Spring to the previous opponent, strike him, and then spring to a new opponent. Not bad.
As for rogue talents, Slow Reactions is absolutely godly, Bleeding Attacks is alright but not recommended. You'd might get mileage out of resiliency depending on your playstyle and luck.
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I concur with the above suggestion. Scout Archetype Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack is pretty tasty. I have been having great success with essentially the same character design (except using an Elf w/ Longbow)
With your stats, and that in mind, I'd probably go with something like this:
1 Dodge
1 (human) Mobility
2 (talent)- Weapon Finesse
3 Toughness
4(talent)- Fast Stealth ---> Scout's Charge kicks in
5 Combat Reflexes
6(talent) Combat Trick: Spring Attack
7 Nimble Moves
8(talent) Trap Spotter ---> Skirmisher kicks in
9 Acrobatic Steps
10 (talent) Improved Evasion
11 Improved Critical (very optional)
12(talent) Skill Mastery (Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics - possibly Disable Device)
13 xxx
14(talent) Knock-Out Blow / something else that strikes your eye
15 yyy
Use a longspear whenever you can, and prioritize getting some Strength boosting gear. Power Attack is a very viable feat later on.
If you HAVE to get right up next to the baddy, consider Reduce Person with a keen rapier/kukri. The small reduction in base weapon damage and strength is more than offset by the increase in AC, to hit, and reflex saves. Plus, on a wand, it's cheap!
For skills, certainly max out Acrobatics, Disable Device, Perception, Stealth, UMD. Depending on the rest of your party, your remaining skill selections should fill in gaps where the party doesn't have competent users. Knowledge (Local), Diplomacy, Linguistics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Climb, Appraise, and Swim are often neglected.
If playing with Traits, something to get Survival as a class skill would be nice, as it goes exceptionally well with the whole "man-tracker" feel this character has going.
Looks like a solid option...hit hard, move away, draw the foe into a tactically superior position. Let the fighter guy get the "kill" once the enemy charges after the scout guy.
If you are going one-handed:
If you don't mind, take one level of fighter, probably the first. Take Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance and one feat of your choice
You gain proficiency in all martial weapons and qualify for mithral breastplate later in the game. You gain prof. with the scimitar. Dervish Dance let's you use your dex modifier for attacks and damage.
Alas, to use the feat, you can't use a shield or another weapon in your off-hand.
As you now don't need str for anything but carrying things, take only 10, and use 12 for another stat of your choice.
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If you are going one-handed:
If you don't mind, take one level of fighter, probably the first. Take Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance and one feat of your choice
You gain proficiency in all martial weapons and qualify for mithral breastplate later in the game. You gain prof. with the scimitar. Dervish Dance let's you use your dex modifier for attacks and damage.
Alas, to use the feat, you can't use a shield or another weapon in your off-hand.As you now don't need str for anything but carrying things, take only 10, and use 12 for another stat of your choice.
Hadn't thought about that...but it's very very doable
You don't even really need Fighter 1 for it.
Weapon Prof: Scimitar, Weapon Finesse @ 1st
Combat Trick: Dervish Dance at 2nd.
Sure, you won't be super great from level 1, but noone is, really. Since you can't take Dervish Dance @ 1st level, delaying it until your Rogue Talent comes into play is no sweat.
Now, you can put that 12 into say, Charisma, or Intelligence.
Thanks for all the advice. The scout archetype and dervish dance look like great options. But how can I use weapon finesse and a scimitar since it is not a light weapon?
It looks like if I could integrate a scout build based on dodge/mobility/spring attack and manage to get dervish dance, I could have a very flexible melee rogue. Is such an approach viable, and how would the feat selection look?
Scratch that first question about the scimitar, I see that it is allowed by the feat.
Here's a different route to go. I know it's not what you're looking at but nonetheless.
Str rogue. Play a half-orc and wield a Falchion. 18 str, power attack. THEN go dodge/mobility/spring attack with fleet and make sure to get boots of speed asap. Great skirmisher. You won't get a full attack very often, but you'll be able to set up, spring in for flanking pretty much on demand, and pack one BIG wallop.
Do both.
1: Dodge, Weapon Finesse
2: Talent (Weapon Focus)
3: Mobility
4: Talent (Befuddling Strike)
5: Spring Attack
6: Talent (Combat Feat - Outflank...and make sure you convince other melee members of your party to take this, it's awesome.
7: Two Weapon Fighting
8: Talent (Offensive Defense)
9: Improved Initiative
10: Talent (Opportunist)
11: Combat Reflexes
12: Talent (Entanglement of Blades)
13: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
14: Talent (I dunno)
15: Paired Opportunists (If you have more than 2 melee'rs including yourself you should all take this)
Drop your Str to 10. The extra 1 damage per swing isn't doing you anything. I would get Con up to 14 to start with. Sink points into raising your Dex. Celestial Armor is a godsend when you can afford it of have a team mate craft it for you. Boots of haste are also huge for you. Set up flanks so you and team-mates can absolutely blenderize people with Outflank. A wand of shield is great for the first round of combat while positioning is playing out. If you jack your Dex, and get Celestial armor down the line, against things you've hit with sneak attack (-2 to their attacks and +1 to your AC from talents) you will almost certainly have the best AC in the group, especially if you can drop a Shield spell in the first round. Also, getting reduce person cast on you, even permanently doesn't really hurt you a ton...it's actually pretty helpful for a build like this, as long as you have some speed boosters to overcome the 20' speed issue.
Edit: The reason I have delayed TWF feats is that your attack bonus is lower progression. The -2 to attacks hurts towards the beginning of the game, and then later on taking ITWF right away simply results in a not very good offhand attack. I think there are better feats to have for the moment, then take the TWF feats slightly later when you're set up for them better.
If you go the Strength Rogue Spring Attack path, also look at the Vital Strike feats. Since they are standard action attacks, you can skirmish with them.
You cannot vital strike on a charge as vital strike is its own standard action so this does not work.