Bestiary Question: Melee bite +5 (1d2–2 plus poison)

[kid america]

So a 2nd level cleric in the party casts Summon Monster I - Viper (snake)* —

Then a discussion from hell breaks out that wastes a good half-hour of time.

p. 133 of the Bestiary for the Viper entry the melee attack line says: Melee bite +5 (1d2–2 plus poison)

WTF?!

Half of the group said if the viper hits it does no damage BUT the creature it attacks must still save versus poison.

The GM and the other half of the group said if the viper hits it does no damage AND the creature it attacks doesn't have to save versus poison EITHER because the viper failed to do any damage so there is no way it could inject its venom.

Why on earth would you write a creature entry like this? Does 1d2-2 mean if I rolled a 1 and then subtract the penalty from the viper's damage, the creature bitten by the viper gains a hit point. I KNOW THIS IS NOT THE CASE, but some players were even arguing for this.

How should that melee line be interrupted?

[hogarth]

The minimum damage is one point of nonlethal damage. See the Combat section of the rules for details.

[Aod43254]

Spoiler:

page 180 core rulebook wrote:

Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage

result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal
damage (see page 191).

Hogarth is correct, so the viper would deal 1 point of non-lethal damage and a saving throw would have to be made by the target if it.

~Aod43254

[InVinoVeritas]

Actually what confuses me about the viper's entry is that since it has a Strength of 4, shouldn't the damage be 1d2-3?

[kid america]

Thank you Hogarth and Aod43254.

InVinoVeritas I believe its 1d2-4 due to the viper being small so thus the additional -1 on top of the -3 from a STR of 4

[InVinoVeritas]

But it's 1d2-2?

[DrDew]

Interesting. Could this be an instance of 1.5x str damage applied to a creature with a low str score?

[Adam Daigle]

Actually, the 1.5 Str bit comes from this:

Natural Attacks from the UMR
"... If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. ..."

[InVinoVeritas]

Adam Daigle wrote:

Actually, the 1.5 Str bit comes from this:

Natural Attacks from the UMR
"... If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. ..."

True, but that's still not a -2...

[DrDew]

4 STR is a -3 mod. Half of three would be 1. So if we add 1 to the -3 then it becomes a -2. However, that doesn't take the size mod into consideration still so it should be -3, not -2.

[Distant Scholar]

DrDew wrote:

4 STR is a -3 mod. Half of three would be 1. So if we add 1 to the -3 then it becomes a -2. However, that doesn't take the size mod into consideration still so it should be -3, not -2.

As far as I know, size changes the base die or dice used by an attack, rather than adding a damage modifier. Am I missing a rule somewhere?

[Are]

DrDew wrote:

However, that doesn't take the size mod into consideration still so it should be -3, not -2.

Size modifies attack rolls and AC, not damage rolls.

[FarmerBob]

I think it is just a typo. Should be 1d2-3 as best as I can tell. The 1.5x for strength only applies to strength bonuses, not modifiers.

Quote:

If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Unless the creature has a strength of at least 14, the 1.5x doesn't really come into play.