I was trying to come up with an interesting leadership cohort idea, and had the thought of a Lantern Archon that took levels as a Sorcerer (Celestial Bloodline, of course). Having a LG ball of light following you around casting spells would be nifty and somewhat unique...
Some scouring of previous posts turned up this one, which seems to indicate that not only can the monster gain PC levels, but they also get their stats adjusted by taking PC levels (+4, +4 +2 +2, +0, -2).
The original stats are:
Str 1, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 10
I would adjust it to:
Str 1+0, Dex 11+2, Con 12+2, Int 6+4, Wis 11-2, Cha 10+4
Str 1, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 14
The question is... how many class levels of Sorcerer could the Lantern Archon take if the Leadership PC is level 7? A Hound Archon is a CR4 and becomes available to a PC as a cohort at level 7 (so the PC would have to be level 9). Blink Dog is a CR2 (just like the Lantern Archon) and is available at level 4 (PC HD 7). All things considered, a ball of light can't equip any items, so it will never grow stat-wise beyond the HD4/8/12/16/20 1-point bumps.
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Huh. Well, given the information shown, I'd say you could do it at the same level as a Blink Dog.
That said, I don't think I'd allow one in my game. Aid at will? Greater Teleport AT WILL?? Those are the kinds of things that can seriously screw up a game. That plus the Aura of Menace being Charisma-based means that you could have a seriously overpowered cohort, despite the weaker spellcasting.
Huh. Well, given the information shown, I'd say you could do it at the same level as a Blink Dog.
That said, I don't think I'd allow one in my game. Aid at will? Greater Teleport AT WILL?? Those are the kinds of things that can seriously screw up a game. That plus the Aura of Menace being Charisma-based means that you could have a seriously overpowered cohort, despite the weaker spellcasting.
I'm not arguing how you would DM your sessions, just playing devil's advocate here. I respect your stance on the issue.
The Hound Archon, which is listed in that chart, has an even higher DC on its Aura of Menace. The Greater Teleport is also the Archon+50lbs of inanimate objects, you couldn't use the teleport to jump your characters around (unless you got creative by placing Life Bubble on your party members and having them hop into a bag of holding...).
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When allowing a cohort not on the alternate cohort list, I eyeball the ECL. I sort of use the Savage Species rules, but less mechanically. It's kind of an art to see where things lie balance-wise. Often at-wills will end up 3/day.
You just need to think about how having certain abilities will impact PC gameplay, which isn't really what CRs do. CRs measure the power a group will need to win a fight, and abilities impact that differently than they do aid given to a PC, especially since said abilities aren't just used in one fight, but basically everyday throughout the rest of the adventure. Balancing these things is an art, so you can't really make hard and fast rules for them.
Equal CR is one guideline, but not the end-all be-all. It's up to the GM, and I'd recommend a close examination of game impact.
Agreed with Alorha.
I'd look for an alternate cohort that's similar in power level (similar abilities, etc) and base it off that one. The hound archon is similar in powers, but not in combat effectiveness. However, the lantern archon is clearly better than the blink dog in noncombat effectiveness, and similar in combat. So...
I'd go with something like making it available as a level 5 cohort, and then add class levels on top of that. So, available at 7th character level as a level 5 cohort. Then at 8th level, it gains a level in a class, and so on.
Agreed with Alorha.
I'd look for an alternate cohort that's similar in power level (similar abilities, etc) and base it off that one. The hound archon is similar in powers, but not in combat effectiveness. However, the lantern archon is clearly better than the blink dog in noncombat effectiveness, and similar in combat. So...
I'd go with something like making it available as a level 5 cohort, and then add class levels on top of that. So, available at 7th character level as a level 5 cohort. Then at 8th level, it gains a level in a class, and so on.
So it would be the equivalent of a level 5 cohort, but still be HD2?
Some scouring of previous posts turned up this one, which seems to indicate that not only can the monster gain PC levels, but they also get their stats adjusted by taking PC levels (+4, +4 +2 +2, +0, -2).
** spoiler omitted **
The default is to not adjust the stats of anything. Those adjustments are for the GM creating NPCs who are monsters with class levels, to turn the standard 11/11/11/10/10/10 array into the NPC 15/14/13/12/10/8 array. There is nothing in the rules for monsterous cohorts to suggest you should apply them to cohorts.
So it would be the equivalent of a level 5 cohort, but still be HD2?
Racial HD has no relation to cohort level. A cohort starts with its default stats, as a cohort of level X, and continues being a cohort of level X+Y (where X is the level off the table, and Y is the number of class levels they have).
Some scouring of previous posts turned up this one, which seems to indicate that not only can the monster gain PC levels, but they also get their stats adjusted by taking PC levels (+4, +4 +2 +2, +0, -2).
** spoiler omitted **
The default is to not adjust the stats of anything. Those adjustments are for the GM creating NPCs who are monsters with class levels, to turn the standard 11/11/11/10/10/10 array into the NPC 15/14/13/12/10/8 array. There is nothing in the rules for monsterous cohorts to suggest you should apply them to cohorts.
So it would be the equivalent of a level 5 cohort, but still be HD2?Racial HD has no relation to cohort level. A cohort starts with its default stats, as a cohort of level X, and continues being a cohort of level X+Y (where X is the level off the table, and Y is the number of class levels they have).
Well the trouble is... While those adjustments can be interpreted to be just for monster NPC's with class levels, it does not specifically state one way or the other in that section or under the Monster Cohorts section that the stat adjustment isn't made to any monster with class levels. It's another one of those "the evidence of absence is not the absence of evidence" type of things... aka gray area that's up the GM I guess.
Could you clarify what you mean about the racial HD?
The default is to not adjust the stats of anything. Those adjustments are for the GM creating NPCs who are monsters with class levels, to turn the standard 11/11/11/10/10/10 array into the NPC 15/14/13/12/10/8 array. There is nothing in the rules for monsterous cohorts to suggest you should apply them to cohorts.
A cohort is an NPC, and will thus get the NPC stat array when it takes a class level. There doesn't have to be special rules for cohorts, since you simply use the regular rules.
So it would be the equivalent of a level 5 cohort, but still be HD2?
That's how I'd handle it. He's a fragile thing in combat, but his out of combat utility is superb. Give him 5 or 6 levels in Paladin and he'll be a lot less fragile.
I would give him the NPC array of stats at the least, per cohort rules.
Honestly I usually roll stats for cohorts same as I do for PCs.
So it would be the equivalent of a level 5 cohort, but still be HD2?That's how I'd handle it. He's a fragile thing in combat, but his out of combat utility is superb. Give him 5 or 6 levels in Paladin and he'll be a lot less fragile.
I would give him the NPC array of stats at the least, per cohort rules.
Honestly I usually roll stats for cohorts same as I do for PCs.
We roll stats for cohorts in my group as well, but up to this point we've only ever considered non-monsters as cohorts. I wasn't sure whether or not you could roll stats for a monster cohort or if you went off of the stats listed in the standard stat block.
We roll stats for cohorts in my group as well, but up to this point we've only ever considered non-monsters as cohorts. I wasn't sure whether or not you could roll stats for a monster cohort or if you went off of the stats listed in the standard stat block.
So it would be the equivalent of a level 5 cohort, but still be HD2?That's how I'd handle it. He's a fragile thing in combat, but his out of combat utility is superb. Give him 5 or 6 levels in Paladin and he'll be a lot less fragile.
I would give him the NPC array of stats at the least, per cohort rules.
Honestly I usually roll stats for cohorts same as I do for PCs.
The GM is the final arbiter.
However, for monsters in the book, they are average for their species. So, to get their racial mods you subtract 10 or 11 from each stat (depending on whether it's even or odd respectively) to get the racial mods.
Your lantern archon, for example, would be :
Str 1, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 10
STR : 1 - 11 = -10
DEX : 11 - 11 = +0
CON : 12 - 10 = +2
INT : 6 - 10 = -4
WIS : 11 - 11 = +0
CHA : 10 - 10 = +0
So, STR -10, CON +2, INT -4
Roll your stats and apply mods (although STR has to be 1 minimum by the rules).
I have no objection to rolling for monster cohorts, or applying the stat adjustments to make a unique NPC from the moment when the cohort is taken. That's entirely up to the GM. My objection is to applying them when the monster takes a PC class level.
If you get a no-level archon, and then he gains a paladin level, why should his stats suddenly change? It certainly doesn't follow the rule "A monster cohort gains experience points as if it were a character of its cohort level, and when it gains enough XP to advance a level, it should generally gain a key class level (fighter is often the best choice for most cohorts)." While the "Adding Class levels" section does say to apply those modifiers, it is clearly in the context of advancing a monster NPC before the party encounters them. If you try to argue that that text should be applied when a non-leveled cohort gets their first level, then what do you do with "A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR" from the same text? Do you suddenly grant the cohort bonus treasure too?
I have no objection to rolling for monster cohorts, or applying the stat adjustments to make a unique NPC from the moment when the cohort is taken. That's entirely up to the GM. My objection is to applying them when the monster takes a PC class level.
If you get a no-level archon, and then he gains a paladin level, why should his stats suddenly change? It certainly doesn't follow the rule "A monster cohort gains experience points as if it were a character of its cohort level, and when it gains enough XP to advance a level, it should generally gain a key class level (fighter is often the best choice for most cohorts)." While the "Adding Class levels" section does say to apply those modifiers, it is clearly in the context of advancing a monster NPC before the party encounters them. If you try to argue that that text should be applied when a non-leveled cohort gets their first level, then what do you do with "A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR" from the same text? Do you suddenly grant the cohort bonus treasure too?
The rules are stating things in the bestiary for the GM, so he knows how to create the NPC for encounters.
For a cohort, you'd apply all the gear/wealth/stats prior to it taking class levels, since it's a cohort, not an encounter monster. At least, that's how I read the interplay between the two rule sets.
So, STR -10, CON +2, INT -4
Roll your stats and apply mods (although STR has to be 1 minimum by the rules).
Based on this, I threw together a possible race template... As I'm clearly an amateur, let me know what you think.
* Alignment: Lawful Good
* Creature Type: Outsider (Archon, Extraplanar, Good, Lawful)
* Strength -10, Constitution +2, Intelligence -4
* Small: Lantern Archons are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD), and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
* Speed: Lantern Archons have a fly speed (perfect) of 60ft
* Low-Light Vision: Lantern Archons can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
* Darkvision: Lantern Archons can see in the dark up to 60 feet. (see darkvision).
* Natural Flight: Fly is always a class skill.
* Archon Resistances: Immunity to electricity and petrification and a +4 racial bonus on saves against Poison. Lantern Archons also have DR 10/evil.
* Defenses: Lantern Archons gain a +4 natural armor bonus. They also gain an additional +2 deflection vs evil.
* Archon Magic: (1/day) Aid, Continual Flame, Detect Evil
* Natural Weapons: (Ex) 2x Light Rays (1d6), max range 30'
* Languages: Lantern Archons begin play with Common and Celestial. Lantern Archons with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic and Infernal.
* Truespeech (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.
* Aura of Menace (Su) A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC varies with the type of archon, is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon's aura for 24 hours. (DC=10+Charisma Modifier+2)
* At-will abilities changed to 1/day Spell-like abilities
* Greater teleport taken off of the ability list
* Gestalt capability not mentioned...not sure if that should be included (what are the odds of ever needing it?)
* Fly set as a class skill
* I wasn't sure what to do with Truespeech...
* I wasn't sure if they should still have "perfect" fly speed or one that's slightly worse since it's a PC/cohort
Take that info, add 1-2 racial hd levels, then fill the rest with class levels...thoughts?
It's hard to answer your question. You've basically changed the Lantern Archon so much by changing it's abilities, that it's hard to guage it's power now. It's obviously much much weaker than a hound archon now.
A hound archon cohort (which is valid at character level 9) has no powers removed at all, including the DR 10/Evil and Immunities and shape change abilities and at will spells and once per day spells.
Honestly, I'd just put the Lantern in as a level 5 cohort and be done with it. That means the PC can get him at level 7 (7-2 = 5) and then boost it with class levels as the player levels, same as you'd do for the Hound Archon if the character took it at level 9 and then leveled.
This whole making a race template and removing powers just makes it harder to guage it's level.
It's hard to answer your question. You've basically changed the Lantern Archon so much by changing it's abilities, that it's hard to guage it's power now. It's obviously much much weaker than a hound archon now.
A hound archon cohort (which is valid at character level 9) has no powers removed at all, including the DR 10/Evil and Immunities and shape change abilities and at will spells and once per day spells.
Honestly, I'd just put the Lantern in as a level 5 cohort and be done with it. That means the PC can get him at level 7 (7-2 = 5) and then boost it with class levels as the player levels, same as you'd do for the Hound Archon if the character took it at level 9 and then leveled.
This whole making a race template and removing powers just makes it harder to guage it's level.
I just changed the parts that responders in this thread seemed to call attention-to (minus changing the Aura), but I can see your point.
So basically...Roll the stats, apply the stat changes you listed above, and use the Lantern Archon bestiary listing for the rest. Then add 3 levels of a PC class (in my case, sorcerer), and be done with it?
I just changed the parts that responders in this thread seemed to call attention-to (minus changing the Aura), but I can see your point.So basically...Roll the stats, apply the stat changes you listed above, and use the Lantern Archon bestiary listing for the rest. Then add 3 levels of a PC class (in my case, sorcerer), and be done with it?
The responders were pointing out that it's original CR wasn't a good guage. If you look at the Hound Archon, he's a CR 4, but Cohort 7.
But Yeah, I'd just apply the stats, use the bestiary listing for the powers (remember, different stats will affect it's saves, BAB, etc) and add however many PC class levels you need to bring it up to from 5. So 5 + 3 = 8, so your character would need to be at least 10th level (assuming his Leadership score is high enough for a level - 2 cohort).
EDIT : Note, unless you're the GM, you need to get the GM to sign off on it too.
I just changed the parts that responders in this thread seemed to call attention-to (minus changing the Aura), but I can see your point.So basically...Roll the stats, apply the stat changes you listed above, and use the Lantern Archon bestiary listing for the rest. Then add 3 levels of a PC class (in my case, sorcerer), and be done with it?
The responders were pointing out that it's original CR wasn't a good guage. If you look at the Hound Archon, he's a CR 4, but Cohort 7.
But Yeah, I'd just apply the stats, use the bestiary listing for the powers (remember, different stats will affect it's saves, BAB, etc) and add however many PC class levels you need to bring it up to from 5. So 5 + 3 = 8, so your character would need to be at least 10th level (assuming his Leadership score is high enough for a level - 2 cohort).
EDIT : Note, unless you're the GM, you need to get the GM to sign off on it too.
Haha, yea, I knew I still needed GM sign-off, but I wanted to know what I was talking about before even bringing it up.
And I think I understand this now. A Lantern Archon would come in as the equivalent of a level 5 cohort but use the bestiary template abilities instead. It would still be only HD2 (bringing it up to HD5 using the racial HD would be nice so it doesn't get 1-shot...). Once the Leadership PC hits level 8 and the cohort is able to level to 6, it can take a level as a PC class.
Haha, yea, I knew I still needed GM sign-off, but I wanted to know what I was talking about before even bringing it up.And I think I understand this now. A Lantern Archon would come in as the equivalent of a level 5 cohort but use the bestiary template abilities instead. It would still be only HD2 (bringing it up to HD5 using the racial HD would be nice so it doesn't get 1-shot...). Once the Leadership PC hits level 8 and the cohort is able to level to 6, it can take a level as a PC class.
The archon would have 2 HD only until you can get it a class level, so it is fragile at first. You'll have to up it's HP via feats or class levels as soon as you can.
Also, if it ends up with a 1 str, and get's hit by a str drain, that will do the same to it as it would to a PC that was at 0 str.
EDIT
Strength (Str)Strength measures muscle and physical power. This ability is important for those who engage in hand-to-hand (or “melee”) combat, such as fighters, monks, paladins, and some rangers. Strength also sets the maximum amount of weight your character can carry. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.