| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If I initiate a full attack (assuming 11th level) against a creature who is not currently stunned (or dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious) But he gains one of these conditions mid-attack, like stunning fist on the second attack of say 5, does Medusa's Wrath trigger?
If I initiate a full attack (assuming 11th level) against a creature who is not currently stunned (or dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious) But he gains one of these conditions mid-attack, like stunning fist on the second attack of say 5, does Medusa's Wrath trigger?
They have to be stunned etc at the beginning.
The full attack(all of it) must be made against a foe with one of the conditions. Attacks are also made from highest to lowest. The extra attacks are assumed to take place before the regular attacks. You can't go back to the beginning and take the extra attacks later.
I would say so. After all, you always *get* those extra attacks. However, to actually *use* them, you need an enemy in the right condition. If an enemy gets one of those conditions before your turn is over, you can use them.
If I initiate a full attack (assuming 11th level) against a creature who is not currently stunned (or dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious) But he gains one of these conditions mid-attack, like stunning fist on the second attack of say 5, does Medusa's Wrath trigger?They have to be stunned etc at the beginning.
The full attack(all of it) must be made against a foe with one of the conditions. Attacks are also made from highest to lowest. The extra attacks are assumed to take place before the regular attacks. You can't go back to the beginning and take the extra attacks later.
But it doesn't state that the enemy must have one of the conditions before you initiate a FA action
But it doesn't state that the enemy must have one of the conditions before you initiate a FA actionIf I initiate a full attack (assuming 11th level) against a creature who is not currently stunned (or dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious) But he gains one of these conditions mid-attack, like stunning fist on the second attack of say 5, does Medusa's Wrath trigger?They have to be stunned etc at the beginning.
The full attack(all of it) must be made against a foe with one of the conditions. Attacks are also made from highest to lowest. The extra attacks are assumed to take place before the regular attacks. You can't go back to the beginning and take the extra attacks later.
The thing is you can't retroactively do something. Medusa's wrath is a full round action. Either you start the action as a regular full round attack or you start it with the feat(also a full round attack). You can just suddenly change a regular full round attack into a Medusa's Wrath attack anymore than you can suddenly change your mind after the action begins and start to TWF.
The thing is you can't retroactively do something. Medusa's wrath is a full round action. Either you start the action as a regular full round attack or you start it with the feat(also a full round attack). You can just suddenly change a regular full round attack into a Medusa's Wrath attack anymore than you can suddenly change your mind after the action begins and start to TWF.
Contrarily to Cleave et al. where it's explicitly said that your action IS Standard, Medusa's Wrath says "Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes"
This means that to "kick in" the feat's benefit, you only have to use a full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike.
Now, these two additional attacks have a restriction on them: "These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe."
That means that you can use Stunning Fist during a Flurry and then gain two attacks in the same round - you can also use Dazing Assault, or Shatter Defenses, or whatever mean you use to inflict one of the required condition upon your foe.
Side note: IIRC, the rules allow you to change your mind after the first attack in a full-round attack. If you do, you stop attacking and you gain a move action, as if your attack was a standard action (but not changing whatever modifiers you used at that time).
The thing is you can't retroactively do something. Medusa's wrath is a full round action. Either you start the action as a regular full round attack or you start it with the feat(also a full round attack). You can just suddenly change a regular full round attack into a Medusa's Wrath attack anymore than you can suddenly change your mind after the action begins and start to TWF.Contrarily to Cleave et al. where it's explicitly said that your action IS Standard, Medusa's Wrath says "Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes"
This means that to "kick in" the feat's benefit, you only have to use a full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike.
Now, these two additional attacks have a restriction on them: "These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe."
That means that you can use Stunning Fist during a Flurry and then gain two attacks in the same round - you can also use Dazing Assault, or Shatter Defenses, or whatever mean you use to inflict one of the required condition upon your foe.
You also did not quote medusa's strike fully, and in the part you did not quote lies the reasoning behind my argument.
Medusa's Wrath (Combat)
You can take advantage of your opponent's confusion, delivering multiple blows.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon's Fist, Scorpion Style, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Full AttackIf you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
You can't go back and get the highest attack bonus once the attack starts. Now if they make errata that says medusa's strike allows you to ignore that rule that is different, but saying it has to be made at the highest attack bonus means, to me, that it has to be at the very beginning or not at all.
edit:took out text
I disagree with wraithstrike. You can use Medusa's Wrath whenever it applies. He's placing wrong emphasis on his reasoning here:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.
In other words, for attacks from other sources (haste, Medusa's Wrath, etc) the high-to-low attack bonus route does not apply.
Even if you assumed that wraithstrike's version is correct, then if your first attack inflicts the necessary condition (say stunning fist), then you'd legally be able to use Medusa's Wrath attacks as you'd still be attacking at full-bonus then.
I disagree with wraithstrike. You can use Medusa's Wrath whenever it applies. He's placing wrong emphasis on his reasoning here:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.In other words, for attacks from other sources (haste, Medusa's Wrath, etc) the high-to-low attack bonus route does not apply.
Even if you assumed that wraithstrike's version is correct, then if your first attack inflicts the necessary condition (say stunning fist), then you'd legally be able to use Medusa's Wrath attacks as you'd still be attacking at full-bonus then.
I don't think saying this "only works on the first attack" is RAI in any case.
What you bolded in no way means attacks can be taken out of order. The TWF feats give extra attacks and they still have to be taken in order.
If you are getting an extra attack not from BAB there is still no instance in which it does not come first.
prd=When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.
Haste specifically works off of BAB so that attack also can't come later, and I am still of the opinion that Medusa's Wrath is the same way.
In any event if we click the FAQ button they might come.
Medusa's wrath can be "activated" during the round.
It's not its own action, but a conditional bonus for when you use the run-of-the-mill full attack action with unarmed attacks and manage to get someone with his pants down).
The attack order thing only refers to attacks you get from high BAB, not everything else. Everything else includes Medusa's Wrath (and haste, and the extra ki strike ability monks get)
And even if it did, monks will usually start with their stunning fist if they try to use it (makes more sense than everything else, as you want the highest to-hit chance for that ability, and want to get as many attacks as possible against the stunned sucker if it goes through, so you try to stun him early). And even if not, monks usually get about three dozen attacks at their highest AB (okay, slight exaggeration, but it is two for flurry and can be more for haste and ki attack).
What you bolded in no way means attacks can be taken out of order. The TWF feats give extra attacks and they still have to be taken in order.
If you are getting an extra attack not from BAB there is still no instance in which it does not come first.
Do you have a source for that? I haven't thought about it for a while, but I think I remember there being no clear statement in the rules to determine between M/M-5/M-10/O/O-5 and M/O/M-5/O-5/M-10.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.Haste specifically works off of BAB so that attack also can't come later, and I am still of the opinion that Medusa's Wrath is the same way.
I don't see anything in here which requires you to make your hasted attack before or after anything else - all it says is that it's at full BAB.
-------------------------
I think that question is irrelevant, though.
Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
I read it as follows (italics are my elaboration):
"Whenever you make a full attack, and at least one attack you make is an unarmed strike even if it's the very last attack you make, at your lowest BAB, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus, against a foe who is currently dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious, even if that's a different target than the original attack."I feel like this is what the rule is intended to do, and clarifies the text of it. My specific argument against wraithstrike's viewpoint is the "at least one unarmed strike" text. I could make all but one of my flurry attacks with a temple sword, then throw in one last unarmed strike. That then immediately qualifies me for activating the feat, which grants me the two attacks at my full BAB (if I have a valid target). If it said "at least one unarmed strike at full base attack" or something similar, then I would agree with him.