| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
blocking out visual and auditory stimuli and allowing you
to concentrate on a single problem, philosophical issue, or
memory. This trance lasts 1d6 rounds, during which time
you can only take move actions. During this period, you gain
a bonus equal to your level on all saves against sonic effects
and gaze attacks. When you come out of your trance, you
may make a single Intelligence-based skill check with a +20
circumstance bonus. You may enter your focused trance a
number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.
Was this really intended to be the best low level Crafting bonus in the game? I'm led to believe so, as Craft is an Int-based skill.
Ditto Spellcraft. In fact, with the way things are written, you could technically put 1 point in Spellcraft and never fail a Magic Item craft check that you met all prerequisites for. A combination of Spellcraft ranks and Int bonus = +6 (with an additional +3 for Class Skill) and you can cut the time in half. Realistically, you can just crank out Wonderous Items and other gear with no chance of having a cursed item...ever.
Am I missing something here? This seems like it's too good to be true, and I don't see anything in the errata doc or original printing text to counter this.
Although it isn't spelled out explicitly, I believe the intention is that focused trance can't be used to augment a crafting skill check (including the spellcraft check to craft magic items) since such a check represents an extended period of diligent work. The key seems to be the phrase "When you come out of your trance", meaning immediately following the trance.
Consider that a crafting check is only rolled at the end of a job; it represents the culmination of the craftsman's work. So all the effort put into crafting an object has already been completed with the craftsman's unmodified skill adjustment when he finally attempts the roll. Pausing in those last few moments to enter a focused trance in hopes of gaining a +20 to the check wouldn't affect all of the work you've already put into the job. At most, I imagine you might suddenly become aware of all the mistakes you'd made during the crafting process; but it'd unfortunately be too late to correct any of it.
Conversely, entering a focused trance upon starting work also wouldn't help since the bonus only applies immediately after coming out of the trance; long before you've completed the work and the crafting skill check is to be rolled. In this case, you'd have a sudden perfect vision of the desired object in your mind but, once you actually pick up your tools and start work, your ability to actually produce the object would once more be limited by your actual talent and skill. I imagine it'd be frustrating to have this perfect image in your mind, yet having no idea how to make it real.
At best, I'd imagine that pausing to enter trances repeatedly throughout the crafting process might provide a modest circumstantial bonus to the final roll at a GM's whim; perhaps +2 or +4.
Although it isn't spelled out explicitly, I believe the intention is that focused trance can't be used to augment a crafting skill check (including the spellcraft check to craft magic items) since such a check represents an extended period of diligent work. The key seems to be the phrase "When you come out of your trance", meaning immediately following the trance.
Consider that a crafting check is only rolled at the end of a job; it represents the culmination of the craftsman's work. So all the effort put into crafting an object has already been completed with the craftsman's unmodified skill adjustment when he finally attempts the roll. Pausing in those last few moments to enter a focused trance in hopes of gaining a +20 to the check wouldn't affect all of the work you've already put into the job. At most, I imagine you might suddenly become aware of all the mistakes you'd made during the crafting process; but it'd unfortunately be too late to correct any of it.
Conversely, entering a focused trance upon starting work also wouldn't help since the bonus only applies immediately after coming out of the trance; long before you've completed the work and the crafting skill check is to be rolled. In this case, you'd have a sudden perfect vision of the desired object in your mind but, once you actually pick up your tools and start work, your ability to actually produce the object would once more be limited by your actual talent and skill. I imagine it'd be frustrating to have this perfect image in your mind, yet having no idea how to make it real.
At best, I'd imagine that pausing to enter trances repeatedly throughout the crafting process might provide a modest circumstantial bonus to the final roll at a GM's whim; perhaps +2 or +4.
My concerns here:
1. The Craft skill does not indicate when the roll takes place. It only states that it signifies one week's worth of work (or day's work, if you are doing this in days). Also, Craft has only one roll for each specific time frame.
2. Focused Trance, while perhaps implying a short time frame, doesn't explicitly have a duration stated for the check (See the Assassin's Death Attack for an example of wording that I'd expect there). The Crafting is a single Intelligence-based check.
3. If FT was intended to only work on Knowledge, Linguistics, Appraise, and Spellcraft-to-identify-something checks, it could have been spelled out as such, but it wasn't.
The Craft skill does not indicate when the roll takes place. It only states that it signifies one week's worth of work (or day's work, if you are doing this in days). Also, Craft has only one roll for each specific time...
You're right; none of that is explicitly spelled out. But, it seems logical to only make the roll at the end of the required time because an early roll would become void if, halfway through, you were interrupted by adventuring concerns or you suffered some event that would lower your craft skill bonus such as suffering Intelligence damage. Also, tricksy players might opt to not bother finishing the work week if they knew the result of a bad die roll at the beginning rather than the end: "Uhm, You know what? My PC is feeling a bit off his game at the moment so I think I'll have him start work next week instead. Okay? So, uhm, can I roll again for that week?"
And, although perhaps not as clear as you'd like, I believe "When you come out of your trance" can only mean "the round following the end of your trance" and not "up to a week after completing your trance".
In the end I believe that, although the instances you listed aren't as explicitly stated as they might otherwise be, your three concerns don't amount to focused trance being intended to apply to long term crafting skill checks.
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I actually kind of like the idea of an Oracle of Lore making a total piece of crap for a week, then, towards the end of the week, sitting down for a few minutes, taking one swing with a hammer, and turning the thing into a FREAKING MASTERPIECE. Just seems funny to me.
Seriously though, I wouldn't allow. XD
In the end I believe that, although the instances you listed aren't as explicitly stated as they might otherwise be, your three concerns don't amount to focused trance being intended to apply to long term crafting skill checks.
So, what you're saying is that you'd house rule against it, yes? What I'm reading out of your response is that you don't agree with the text as presented in the source.
In a system where the rules tend to be very explicit, this seems to be a somewhat vague ability in function. As presented, though, it seems clear enough that it was intended for any Intelligence-based skill check. Discussing this further with some individuals in my gaming circle, it seems that there really are only 3 options as far as the design on this:
1. My reading is the intended function of Focused Trance,
2. There is another rule somewhere that I haven't seen (and so far has not been presented here) that invalidates this reading, or
3. This ability was worded poorly and is due for an erratum that was not noted during the first round of errata.
I find 3 to be suspect, as the APG errata doc is very picky and did include rebalancing items in it. 2 is a reasonable possibility, but I'd want to see the source quotation. Until then, my assumption is that 1 is correct, and you can reconcile it by stating that the check is in contemplating the proper techniques to best craft the item in question, which you then execute to the best of your abilities.
That said, I'd still be making checks daily instead of weekly, as that's the only way I can reconcile my explanation, but this is completely valid in the Craft skill section.
In a system where the rules tend to be very explicit, this seems to be a somewhat vague ability in function. As presented, though, it seems clear enough that it was intended for any Intelligence-based skill check. Discussing this further with some individuals in my gaming circle, it seems that there really are only 3 options as far as the design on this:1. My reading is the intended function of Focused Trance,
2. There is another rule somewhere that I haven't seen (and so far has not been presented here) that invalidates this reading, or
3. This ability was worded poorly and is due for an erratum that was not noted during the first round of errata.I find 3 to be suspect, as the APG errata doc is very picky and did include rebalancing items in it. 2 is a reasonable possibility, but I'd want to see the source quotation. Until then, my assumption is that 1 is correct, and you can reconcile it by stating that the check is in contemplating the proper techniques to best craft the item in question, which you then execute to the best of your abilities.
That said, I'd still be making checks daily instead of weekly, as that's the only way I can reconcile my explanation, but this is completely valid in the Craft skill section.
The Errata doc might be very picky about its changes, but that doesn't mean they thought of everything when they wrote it. Note how the Core errata is up to version 3 or so - they keep adding more changes. I've FAQed the question, because it's quite possible that this has never been asked before. So I find 3 to be the most likely scenario.
That being said, I'll point out that under the "Action required" part of crafting, it says "Does not apply. Craft checks are made by the day or week (see above)." I read this to mean that the craft check is not made either at the beginning or the end, but that making the craft check represents the entire time spent. I think of it as a "crafting montage" that you sometimes see in a movie when they're building something epic (the Iron Man movies, for instance).
This ability specifically happens "When you come out of your trance" - which implies a specific moment in time. But a craft check is not made at a specific moment (even if you're checking by day), so it can't happen immediately after the trance.
My particular flavor of house rule for a PC who insisted on using it would be to roll a die (I'd probably use a d8 for by-the-day and d20 for by-the-week) to set a target number, then repeatedly ask the PC "Are you trancing" and have them roll the same size die. If their die matches mine, then they get to make the craft check right then, with the trance bonus if they declared a trance (and used up one daily use of it), and without it if they didn't. Repeat until they're out of trance uses for the day/week, or they match the numbers and make the craft roll.
The Errata doc might be very picky about its changes, but that doesn't mean they thought of everything when they wrote it. Note how the Core errata is up to version 3 or so - they keep adding more changes. I've FAQed the question, because it's quite possible that this has never been asked before. So I find 3 to be the most likely scenario.
I'm willing to accept that possibility, but I'd want to see some sort of dev clarification on that.
That being said, I'll point out that under the "Action required" part of crafting, it says "Does not apply. Craft checks are made by the day or week (see above)." I read this to mean that the craft check is not made either at the beginning or the end, but that making the craft check represents the entire time spent. I think of it as a "crafting montage" that you sometimes see in a movie when they're building something epic (the Iron Man movies, for instance).
Knowledge checks also indicate "Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action" in reference to Action required. Additionally, you could be utilizing a library or specific tomes on your Knowledge checks, which would make the Knowledge check be longer than a standard action. I don't believe that this would negate usage of Focused Trance.
This ability specifically happens "When you come out of your trance" - which implies a specific moment in time. But a craft check is not made at a specific moment (even if you're checking by day), so it can't happen immediately after the trance.
Again, using a library or other set of references on the Knowledge check, which takes up to 4 hours, or trying to create a forgery with Linguistics, which takes 1d4 minutes per page. Would you disqualify these uses as well? All of Linguistics takes more than a round (1 minute per page of deciphering text, 1 round per page to detect forgeries, or the aforementioned 1d4 minutes per page to create a forgery). The reading you appear to favor is that you can use it to make a Knowledge check within 1 round of the trance ending, but I don't see that as being supported by the text as an expiration of the effect is not mentioned (see: Death Attack on the Assassin, pg 379 of the core book, second sentence).