May I wonder why you ask about this? are you worried it will be too weak/strong for your adventure? It hard to go into details before I understand your question, but overall I feel that bards are one of the more balanced classes.
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Your Paladin and Cleric will likely bring plenty of damage. The controller bard is brilliant because he often turns an enemy into an ally for a fight or ten.
Or completely shuts down an enemy with excellent control spells and abilities.
Seriously I wouldn't sweat it, just try not to throw lots of "immune to mind effecting abilities" monsters (like Mindless Undead and constructs) at the PCs, as it'll nerf the bard and unfun the game for his player.
As we are playing Carrion Crown there will be alot of undead:-)
how can the controller bard turn enemys into allies?
The charm and dominate spell lines.
And without going into detail, if the paladin goes for a damage build, with buffs from a bard/cleric/sorc, I can not see the party having trouble doing damage, but if the paladin goes for a more tanky build, there might be a problem.
You should also be aware that paladins/clerics with high cha will rip through undeads with channels, even worse if the cleric will focus on controlling them so the other players might feel overshadowed.
But you should warn the bard about that there will be a lot of enemies immune mind effects, as that will shutdown most of his character for a large part of the adventure path!
And also is the cleric going caster or fighter wannabe?
Also I assume the sorc is not focusing in dealing damage.
As half of the group is newbie (paladin & sorcerer)
i did not want to over-maximize the group. The Bard is the 10 year seasoned player that would love to play the controller-bard.
As for the roles... the Paladin has STR 18 so is going for Damage with some Tanking capability (lay on hands, scale mail, shield, longsword... also a heavy flail).
I thought first the sorcerer could take grease for some controlling and mage armor.. but maybe magic missle, mage armor or shield?
As of now I would think of the Cleric a caster / fighter mix with scimitar for flanking with the paladin?
Mage armor will often be better early as it has much longer duration, I would also go for grease early, as the bloodline power, or a shortbow/light crossbow/longspear will be nearly as good as magic missile on the first levels, depending on that either the dex or str score is not dumped to much, and a sorc should at least have a decent dex.
Also if your paladin will use a shield he should look into two weapon fighting to not fall behind in damage.
Also I updated my previous post, if you missed it.
One thing to remember is that the bard will be buffing the Cleric and Paladin to new heights. The Controller is not about dealing damage, but mitigating it. Battles can go longer, but ideally will use fewer resources as enemies are prevented from attacking. This gives your damage dealers more time to fight.
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Carrion Crown Player Friendly:
You should warn the player that the Player's Guide recommends AGAINST focusing in Enchantment spells.
A Controller Bard focuses in Enchantment. There will be lots of things that are immune to mind-affecting effects.
He/She should read the Player's Guide suggestions for Bard:
Bards are incredibly versatile and can fill a number of campaign
roles. Those who focus entirely on enchantment or mind-affecting effects may find some portions of the Adventure Path challenging; at least passing skill in combat or the ability to magically enhance allies will come in handy. Good class archetypes include Archivist, Detective, and Magician. Suggested skills include Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Stealth.
If the player wants to have fun with this character, he/she should consider highly the suggestions of the Player's Guide.
Threnodic Spell should help too if he is set on the idea.
we have only 4 PC
Human Paladin
Half - Elf Sorcerer
ClericBard - Controller Build
Would the player with the Sorcerer be willing to switch to a Witch?
Witch and Bard are amazing together. They would enable the two warriors to hit often, be hit less, and enjoy a controlled battlefield.
One of my PCs is thinking of playing the Controller Bard.
What do you think of that build?
I'm a player in a Kingmaker group with one. A few comments from levels 1 through 6...
(a) Dazzling Display seems not worth it. The way enemy groups and CR work there is almost never more than one big bad guy. If there is one then a simple Intimidate check to demoralize is as effective and also allows movement. The handful of little opponents, with or without a big bad guy boss, are wimpy and don't need debuffing.
(b) Whip is unreliable. Lots of foes have DR, and a whip user hates DR.
(c) Controlling and Performance are boring for the player. Nothing positional or tactical during combat. Have some way to be a useful warrior occasionally. (In our Kingmaker group, giving our bard the Fey-Bane sword you find is a nice solution.)
(d) Nets are very useful and fun. Just for player enjoyment, consider Net proficiency as a level 1 feat.
(e) Because of casting/demoralizing and net use, the Bard needs CHA and STR. So defense will be weak. Mirror image is thus a great thing.
Bard controller is fine, even for an undead heavy campaign. Illusions are the key. . .
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There is an archetype, Dirge Bard, that lets the bard use mind-affecting spells even on mindless undead. Perhaps he should look at it.
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There is an archetype, Dirge Bard, that lets the bard use mind-affecting spells even on mindless undead. Perhaps he should look at it.
The other thought that I had is that the Bard could do a 1-level dip with undead sorcerer. For a dip, I'd be even willing to consider a cross-blooded serpentine / undead sorcerer level to be able to affect just about everything you come across.
The downside is that your will save will take a hit if you go cross blooded. You also have to make certain that the spells that you pick up with your sorcerer level are either 1) non-somatic spells like true strike or are cantrips that you would use outside of combat. Why? That way you don't have to worry about any chance of arcane failure while wearing armor and casting spells from your sorcerer level.
Meanwhile, the arcana would change all your enchantment spells.
Though I'm wondering... would it affect bardic performance as well? Or is that left unaffected?
Hmm
To be honest, I don't think bards make good controllers. You can sort of do it, but it will never be terribly effective beyond low level. They don't get many spells per day and later on their DCs fall behind.
A wizard/sorcerer/arcanist chassis would be better.
This doesn't stop bards from being awesome however.
I'm guessing you are talking about Treantmonks Controller bard?
It's a great idea and very fun, but having run Carrion Crown, the player may find themselves with no way to effectively contribute in a large number of the combats.
They will rock in the interaction department, which can be key in several of the books, but combat after Book 2...may not be fun.
A number of the encounters feature creatures immune to mind affecting effects, glamors and illusions. All key components of the bard.
The low Bab will also become problematic in later books as they will try to use their whip or net and the foes will shrug it off or he will not beat their CMD.
If he plays to the bards strengths as a party buffer, he may be more effective and can enjoy a different style of challenge!
