I would go with 20. The assumption the adventure designers for the APs and Modules make is that players use a 15 point buy, so 25 is a big power boost compared to that.
20 is sufficient to allow players to make the characters they want without needing to 'dump' anything.
Whichever point buy you use though, a bigger obstacle for your two beginners is likely to be tactical combat. I suggest not going overboard with your NPCs using advanced tactics, and try to introduce the finer points of tactical combat over time.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One thing to consider is that you don't have to use 20 or 25. You can split the difference at 22 or 23, for instance.
As to what to pick, I think it has a lot to do with play style. Do you want your characters to be more on the realistic heroes end of the spectrum, with weaknesses and blind spots, or do you want them to be more superheroic and able to do everything at least better than average? (and not just your preferences, but your players.)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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If you're concerned about one dimensional characters who aren't well rounded, you can do other things to address that other than increased point buy, such as giving a 1 or 2 free skill ranks in a craft or profession skill, or if you use traits, having PCs start with 3 rather than 2 (and still limit them to no more than one per category to ensure a broader range of bonuses).
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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All these suggestions are good. All I will add is that, if you go above what the writers expect (a 15 point buy), the biggest thing you are doing is creating work for yourself. You will have to increase the power level of the challenges they face, or your players will wind up bored. This becomes more prevalent the more points you give out. If you enjoy tuning your adventures based on your characters, then give them whatever point buy you want; you're going to be making changes, anyway, so no big deal adding a little extra to boost bad guy power level. However, if you want to use the book as written, stay at 20 or less.
The AP is based on 4 players with a 15 point buy. Anything above that and you're ahead of the power curve, theoretically.
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The amount that point buy amount effects the game depends on the player. Yes 25 point buy in the hands of an optimizer will do quite a bit of damage to the challenge of the AP. In the hands of a causal/RP focused player who thinks that having 14 charisma on the fighter is a nice fit for their character? Not so much. Also classes matter too. SAD character like wizard wont get that much of a boost between a 15 and 20 point buy. MAD classes like a paladin or monk will (in fact monks really should just get 25 point buy).
I have tossed around the idea of using tiered point buys for this reason. SAD classes get 15, MAD other then monks get 20 and monks get 25. The only issue is with MCing. I get the feeling this will cause a lot of 1 level monk dip at level 1 for the stats...and I haven't figured out a good way to fix that other then to say monks can't MC... and to do something with anyone who may wanna play a MT as that is a MAD build but will have SAD stats (is that anyone?!?). Since all the SAD character are casters, there is no issue with them taking a level a MAD class for the stats because...well the loss of CL isn't really worth it unless your going with a full on MCed build in which case, your gonna become MAD anyways.
With you as first time PF DM and new players making the PCs a little more powerful is probably not a bad idea, unless you know some of your players are heavy into optimizing.
Hm, just reading what Cold Napalm posted as I'm writing this. What (s)he said in the first paragraph, basically. :)
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I recomend 15 or 20 point buy. I have run gaames with 25 point buys and it's alot of work restating all the npc and monsters.
Personly my group use to run with 25 point buy all the time. We changed to a 15 point buy in the last few games. I can say that a 15 point buy is more then enough to make a good character with out being over powered. How ever if your opposed to dump stats you will need a 20 point buy. The only real problem is your experanced players my not be aposed to dump stats. And that will make them much more powerfull characters over all. Depending on what there making. The only way you can keap it even close to even for character creation from a experanced player and a new player. 1: use a base set of stats for every one. 2: help the new players make there characters.
DM ruling that you can't have dump stats. Personly I wold never come back to your game. I feal that just becous you don't like somthing. Dos't mean you need to change the game for every one.
As an aside, I'm not seeing the "15 point buy is what is assumed" of the APs. I've always been under the impression 20 was where the published adventures figured things were at.
On topic...when I run it, I'll likely go with 25, though there will be a lot of discussion between me and the players before they actually make their characters. Skills are pretty important in this campaign, and a non-horrible charisma on most of the party (not just the one sorcerer/bard running around with a band of stinky drooling wackos) is strongly advised. I think the few extra points that can let you have a good stat array will be appreciated, though I would keep an eye out for people who use it to get an 18 in strength and con while dumping all the mental stats. You should let people make the character they want to play, but at the same time, you should let them know that this campaign isn't going to be very fun if they're playing as the mindless wrecking ball.
if it were me Dming here is how i would do it.
2d6+6 6 times arrange as desired
everybody writes down thier rolls and the group may choose any of the listed arrays, and 2 or more may choose the same array.
or 50 point buy with the following caveats
no starting stat may go above 18 after racial modifiers nor is any stat allowed to fall below 12 after racial modifiers.
this latter option negates the dreaded 20 and negates the penalty of dump stats.
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Table 1–2: Ability Score Points
Campaign Type Points
Low Fantasy 10
Standard Fantasy 15
High Fantasy 20
Epic Fantasy 25
So from the book 15 point buys is standard fantasy. And is what they base the AP's on. All named npc and the old pregenerated characters use the heroic ability score set. So unless you want to reset up almost all the encounters 20 is ok. 25 you will have to rework all encounters to make them a chalange. 20point buy is whats uesed in PFSP. Not what they use as a base for game, adventures, or APs. Now im not saying 20 point buy is not common. How ever adventrues and AP's are made with 15 point buy as base.
Side note the higher the point buy the less usefull the animal companions, and other abilitys that are like it becous there useing a 15 point buy base.
Can you show me where they actually say their modules are published with 15 in mind? I'm fully aware it's called "standard fantasy". That doesn't prove what you're saying.
Can you show me where they actually say their modules are published with 15 in mind? I'm fully aware it's called "standard fantasy". That doesn't prove what you're saying.
I'm not sure why you require proof, but anyway, here you are:
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This is an interesting concept. I was going to be running the Carrion Crown AP later this year. All of the players are seasoned veterans, so I am looking for a way to keep it a challenge without heavy modification. There will be four or five players. For this tiered point buy, tt seems hard to put them into categories though. Some classes are SAD when build for a one dimensional purpose, but need more when put into certain concepts. How is the MAD and SAD defined?
The amount that point buy amount effects the game depends on the player. Yes 25 point buy in the hands of an optimizer will do quite a bit of damage to the challenge of the AP. In the hands of a causal/RP focused player who thinks that having 14 charisma on the fighter is a nice fit for their character? Not so much. Also classes matter too. SAD character like wizard wont get that much of a boost between a 15 and 20 point buy. MAD classes like a paladin or monk will (in fact monks really should just get 25 point buy).
I have tossed around the idea of using tiered point buys for this reason. SAD classes get 15, MAD other then monks get 20 and monks get 25. The only issue is with MCing. I get the feeling this will cause a lot of 1 level monk dip at level 1 for the stats...and I haven't figured out a good way to fix that other then to say monks can't MC... and to do something with anyone who may wanna play a MT as that is a MAD build but will have SAD stats (is that anyone?!?). Since all the SAD character are casters, there is no issue with them taking a level a MAD class for the stats because...well the loss of CL isn't really worth it unless your going with a full on MCed build in which case, your gonna become MAD anyways.
Require proof? Because this is the internet, and I don't know you, or anyone else who said 15 was what was assumed. I've seen plenty of people say it, but I've never seen anyone with any weight behind them verify it. Thank you for the quote, I stand educated.
I agree that is more about the players than the points.
We're running Serpent Skull right now. and ALMOST every week, my rogue with 25 point build hits SERIOUS negative health.... SERIOUSLY... Almost EVERY week!!!
Our DM likes us to be the 'Epic Heroes' of which tales are written of... so we always go 25. (so far.... next one may get scaled back a bit...)
but seriously, the way the system seems built, I don't think OUR stats are any determining factor on the ease of play...
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This is an interesting concept. I was going to be running the Carrion Crown AP later this year. All of the players are seasoned veterans, so I am looking for a way to keep it a challenge without heavy modification. There will be four or five players. For this tiered point buy, tt seems hard to put them into categories though. Some classes are SAD when build for a one dimensional purpose, but need more when put into certain concepts. How is the MAD and SAD defined?
The amount that point buy amount effects the game depends on the player. Yes 25 point buy in the hands of an optimizer will do quite a bit of damage to the challenge of the AP. In the hands of a causal/RP focused player who thinks that having 14 charisma on the fighter is a nice fit for their character? Not so much. Also classes matter too. SAD character like wizard wont get that much of a boost between a 15 and 20 point buy. MAD classes like a paladin or monk will (in fact monks really should just get 25 point buy).
I have tossed around the idea of using tiered point buys for this reason. SAD classes get 15, MAD other then monks get 20 and monks get 25. The only issue is with MCing. I get the feeling this will cause a lot of 1 level monk dip at level 1 for the stats...and I haven't figured out a good way to fix that other then to say monks can't MC... and to do something with anyone who may wanna play a MT as that is a MAD build but will have SAD stats (is that anyone?!?). Since all the SAD character are casters, there is no issue with them taking a level a MAD class for the stats because...well the loss of CL isn't really worth it unless your going with a full on MCed build in which case, your gonna become MAD anyways.
SAD characters need only one stat to become very good at their role.
So SAD:
Wizard (need int)
Sorcerer (need cha)
cleric (need wisdom)
druid (need wisdom)
Aka the casters.
MAD:
Fighter (need str, dex)
Paladin (need str, cha)
Bard (need cha, dex or str)
Rogue (need dex, can't tank int, wis and cha)
Monk (need str, dex, wis...aka the screwed).
Aka the not casters.
Course like you mentioned player choices kinda is a kick in the balls...on top of the MCing issues I mentioned.
Can you show me where they actually say their modules are published with 15 in mind? I'm fully aware it's called "standard fantasy". That doesn't prove what you're saying.
They've given lip service to that "15 point" number, but a better way to describe it might be "standard monster difficulty as per the Bestiary" or whatever. I think more eyeballing of difficulty goes on when the modules are being written as opposed to actual playtesting with 15 point characters.
A 20 point buy is a good decision, IMO.
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All monster CR are set to 15 point buy.
So all encounters are set to 15 point buy.
20 point buy will not brake this.
25 point buy will brake this. And requires reseting all monsters to a 20 or 25 point buy. To bring the CR system back in line.
So the game as a hole is set to 15 point buy. Not just character creation. Any thing higher then a 20 point buy and the system starts to fall apart. Iv seen it hapen alot. After runing games with 25, 20 and 15 point buys. 25 is way over powered for as writen. 20 if you have none experanced games is good. 15 if you have experanced games is good.
Personly as a experanced gamer I like the 15 point buy. It makes chalanges in character creation. It forces me to have a weak spot in any character I make. All that realy means is I can't make a character that is good at every thing. With a 20 point buy with experanced players and a bit of optimization. You can make powerfull characters. With 25 Point buy some optimization I can and have made characters that can do every thing. They do not need a party to function becous they could do it all.
25 point bard can max out Str, have a high Cha and Con. So you do it all melee, heal, buffs, arcane spells, socal skills. The only thing you can't do is magic traps darn.
For the OP, if you dont like dump stats my recommendation is 25 point buy without allowing any stat to be dropped under 10. You get similar high values as the 20 point buy, but no dump stats.
The AP is based on 4 players with a 15 point buy. Anything above that and you're ahead of the power curve, theoretically.
+1
15 points is all they need.
20, or 25 points is what they want
We stopped doing point buy because it literally ended up with the same stats for all characters (depending on class)
So we roll 3d6 re roll 1s.
This gives us 17 ish point buy most of the time
What we ended up with this time is:
barbarian S:16 D:13 C:14 I:8 W:11 Ch:10
alchemist s:13 d:15 c:11 I:18 w:10 ch:8
witch: s:10 d:11 c:10 I:18 w:11 ch:13
inquisitor s:13 d:18 c:13 I:13 w:15 ch:12
we are currently 5th in carrion crown and we all bumped one stat once and i dont recall whatever one did, but I think witch and alchemist did INT, inquisitor did DEX and barb STR. Everyone got a +2 racial mod to one stat (except the alchemist who is an elf so dex 2 int 2 con -2)
So original stats would have been (b4 mods)
s:13 d:13 c:14 I:8 w:11 ch:10 (10 points)
S:13 d:13 c:13 I:15 w:10 ch:8 (14 points)
s:10 d:11 c:10 I:15 w:11 ch: 13 (12 points)
s:13 d:15 c:13 I:13 wis:14 chr: 12 (22 points yeowch!)
Overall average: 14.5 points
we generally prefer lower 'points' to uber stats or our characters effectiveness gets carried away.
AS you can see the barbarian has the weakest points, but is our most effective melee character (so still has a valid place in the party) the witch, the next weakest, still has an 18 (by 5th level) in her casting stat, the alchemist (basically in the same boat as the others) has an 18 in her main stat and everything is hunky dorey.
There are 2 8s in the party giving the alchemist a negative to chr based skills and the barb an negative to skills and int based skills.
Dump stats? Hardly.
I think dump stats are 5-6 or below.
If you look st everyone of the iconics, there is an 8 in there somewhere.
most of your characters are going to look close to the inquisitor who has 22 points and is quite an effective character (lucky rolls but could easily have been built with 20-25 points).
It's no wonder that the inquisitor (me) is the party leader ( I never realized I was that 'ahead' of every one.
Obviously if this was a point buy you could have done alot more with the points, but they happen to be spread out all over the place.
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We stopped doing point buy because it literally ended up with the same stats for all characters (depending on class)
So we roll 3d6 re roll 1s.This gives us 17 ish point buy most of the time
What we ended up with this time is:
barbarian S:16 D:13 C:14 I:8 W:11 Ch:10
alchemist s:13 d:15 c:11 I:18 w:10 ch:8
witch: s:10 d:11 c:10 I:18 w:11 ch:13
inquisitor s:13 d:18 c:13 I:13 w:15 ch:12we are currently 5th in carrion crown and we all bumped one stat once and i dont recall whatever one did, but I think witch and alchemist did INT, inquisitor did DEX and barb STR. Everyone got a +2 racial mod to one stat (except the alchemist who is an elf so dex 2 int 2 con -2)
So original stats would have been (b4 mods)
s:13 d:13 c:14 I:8 w:11 ch:10 (10 points)
S:13 d:13 c:13 I:15 w:10 ch:8 (14 points)
s:10 d:11 c:10 I:15 w:11 ch: 13 (12 points)
s:13 d:15 c:13 I:13 wis:14 chr: 12 (22 points yeowch!)Overall average: 14.5 points
Statistically average is nice...but that doesn't account for the odd ball happenings. What happens when somebody can't roll above a 10? Or they get four 18s? Point buy is the same 100% of the time...not a statistical average(tecnically should be median) of the time. Yeah those odd ball happening may not happen all the time, but when they do, they can be quite disruptive to game and as such, I'd rather go with the 100% over risking it as a DM.