So feytharn, do you think they should only have to sleep 4 hours, as a part of the rules?
Don't old frail people with weakened constitutions sleep a great deal though?
I have been very interested in really incorporating more of the "fluff" into elves, and not just have them as humans with a different stat block. See very often the players of elves in the large Melbourne gaming group I am a part of, simply play elves as arrogant wizards. It has got a bit stale, so changing sleep may be a start.
Their penchant to be distracted I find fascinating, what others have called their ADHD. Saves versus being distracted or captivated could be added. Perhaps the elves effectively spend the eight hours not moving much, but obsess or remain enchanted by a flower, an object or a memory. Heavy reverie 4 hours, light reverie or light activity 4 hours. Perhaps a wizard who doesn't do this starts to feel odd, his will is strong, but he feels the pull of the elven capricious natures? I might think to really add the elves in their entirety, give them the four hour sleep pattern, because you are right other animals have different sleep patters. Although all of the other standard playable humanoids seem to follow the standard sleep patterns and requirements.
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Don't old frail people with weakened constitutions sleep a great deal though?
The required amount of sleep for adults doesn't seem to change much with age. It was thouight that elderly people actually needed [k]less[/k] sleep, but by todays knowledge, that is wrong. Many elderly have trouble reaching phase IV sleep though and compansate that by running "low on power" through the day (same as everyone does when his sleep is disrupted during phase IV or between phase III and IV).
Interesting, yeah an Occupational therapist of old people pretty much confirmed that.
What do you think of more rules to modify the standard elf? Pros and cons.
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The pros are obvious: You get a more detailed view on a fantasy race that might help you not to play it as a strange looking human.
The cons are less obvious, but I experienced two kinds of reactions for fantastic races too detailed:
1) The german game DSA describes every race (in fact every little slice of land) in great detail, ruleswise and background wise and it tries (not always successful) to back up every bit of background with rules. Many players I've seen had more trouble playing those detailed races, because they have much more detailed information on the race they are playing, their lives, their traits, their quirks (all backed up by rules) then even a most dedicated player would put into the background of his character. So the player has trouble fitting something personal within the racial details provided.
2)The Babylon 5 RPG does a great job providing biological details like diet, anatomy etc. for the main races in their respective books. Interesting to read, great to picture the alien you want to play.
Sad thing is, most of the time it doesn't matter. Sadly, in a group of 4-5 players you can't constantly focus on certain minor quirks of an alien being, trying to do so will almost certainly break "spotlight moment" for other characters, because you simply must explain why you can't eat a certain food while your human companion tries to fasttalk the waiter.
If you don't focus on those minor quirks, they simply get forgotten - the game, any game is a complex matter and trying to remember dozens of minor rules for your starting character comes in the way of gaming very fast.
My take: I'm all for rules and quirks that make us see the difference between the races, but I prefer them to be anecdotical, without getting into too much detail. Then, encourage players and GMs alike to build around those anecdotical info. Not all Golarions need to have the same Elves. It's nice to have a common ground, but it is nicer to be able to fit the world to your liking - sadly, the more information you get provided, the harder it gets to change any of them.
My elves might need 4 hours of sleep/meditation only because the deep trance is much more refreshing then human sleep, and if humans were able to spend a few decades on perfecting meditation skills they might get there (vudran yogi come to mind), yours might be a species that just need less sleep, yet tend to be a bit on the edge (too much for concentrating on complex matters as wizardly spells) if they don't take 2-3 more hours adjusting themselfs.
Both would work well enough and I don't see any reason to codify every bit of background and rules, making the study of a single fantastic race a lifequest.
Good good, but meditation is a skill, concentration, and elves don't get a bonus to this, or it for free (perhaps they should, but a great boost would be off, and they already get other bonuses). Elves may meditate, but they would need to focus perhaps skill focus and many levels to unlock an extra-beneficial meditation. Second suggestion made sense, the wizard elf has to adapt to the 8hour norm, others may get by.
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See, thats what I mean with not hardcoding everything into rules. For me and my game, the rules help me to create the reality of the game world, but the reality of the gameworld isn't all rules. I have no qualm to say that meditation (skill) and meditation (elvish rest) are two different things - as I daresay "recreational" meditation (calming ones mind, active relaxing) is a different thing from the meditation a yogi or fakir does to achive the mental or physical feats he does
As is always pertinent to a discussion on elves, dabbling in something is not the same as serious study and focus. Recreational meditation is dabbling, a yogic master is doing the real and more full thing. If they were to require half the sleeping time due to meditation, this would require learning and skill. It isn't in the stats. We were mentioning sleep and different requirements before, meditation is a far cry from sleep. Sleep is natural and required, you can take courses in meditation or adopt a form based on cultural practices.
The reverie, the meditation, it seems neither here nor there. Some elves even do their reverie tucked away in warm beds. Is this just fluff and an idea hat hovers around elves, not the truth for elves (they present themselves as not really sleeping, but they do)? An interesting thing to ask in games for this fictional race.
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See, thats what I mean with not hardcoding everything into rules. For me and my game, the rules help me to create the reality of the game world, but the reality of the gameworld isn't all rules. I have no qualm to say that meditation (skill) and meditation (elvish rest) are two different things - as I daresay "recreational" meditation (calming ones mind, active relaxing) is a different thing from the meditation a yogi or fakir does to achive the mental or physical feats he does
Obviously our take on this (different / lesser form aka dabbling) is different enough to make a continued discussion about this quite fruitless.
Also, in my example the meditation of the elves would still lead too a trance. A trance can be very refreshing for body and mind (even more so then sleep), but a human would need to sleep sooner or later (although some yogis claim different, I would not take that into a discussion), an elf maybe wouldn't.
Reaching this recreational trance doesn't require a skill roll, but an elf can't use this ability for anything else. A Human (dwarf, Halfling, etc.) could use his learned meditation skills to enter a recreational trance just like an elf does (also, see above, they would need to sleep eventually), but can do all the other things the meditation/concentration skill might do (Note: there is no concentration or meditation skill in Pathfinder)
If I were to take this road, I'd probably allow non elves a meditation skill roll for a trance that refreshes tired characterss, but impose a penalty for every day meditation is used instead of sleep.
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As is always pertinent to a discussion on elves, dabbling in something is not the same as serious study and focus. Recreational meditation is dabbling, a yogic master is doing the real and more full thing. If they were to require half the sleeping time due to meditation, this would require learning and skill. It isn't in the stats. We were mentioning sleep and different requirements before, meditation is a far cry from sleep. Sleep is natural and required, you can take courses in meditation or adopt a form based on cultural practices.
The reverie, the meditation, it seems neither here nor there. Some elves even do their reverie tucked away in warm beds. Is this just fluff and an idea hat hovers around elves, not the truth for elves (they present themselves as not really sleeping, but they do)? An interesting thing to ask in games for this fictional race.
It might be interesting to ask, but this would be part of the game you play, so the vaguenes of the rules and fluff actually give you the opportunity to chose whatever interesting answer you want.
Were it all hardcoded, the whole subject might just be uninteresting - so your game wins (an interesting question) through the vaguenes of the rules which, in term, proves my point ;-)
I don't think it would be uninteresting or that your point is proven. Players like time to do things through their characters. If it is one elf with a party of humans, while they sleep about 8, he meditates for about 4, so is up and clear-headed when everyone else is sleeping (the elf is not a wiz).
What does the elf do with the added four hours? That is up to the player. More rpg time.
Does he/she wander off and appreciate beauty? Keep a log of the adventures, sing, explore a forest path and get into a combat at night that challenges him or her? This elf is far away from elven patrol routes.
With some more hard-coded changes (though not sure this is particularly "hard", demanding or problematic), the elf gets the extra four hours but then may become distracted as is the frequently described element of elven psychology. So perhaps the elf is slowed in purchasing new items and such because they want to really appreciate the unusual craftsmanship. Conversations draw more attention, the elf wants to meet new types of people and appreciate their full beauty/characteristics (this elf is clearly not xenophobic, but is also wandering way out of the normal elven experience).
Some have said elves are like bards, and that the class suits them. More hours up, but not necessarily more getting done in a pragmatic sense, enlivens their experience. For example, the party travel and rest, enter a village and do some shopping over a few days. The elf paces the village streets before the party, having time to get there from the camp and back before dawn. As they shop, sell and booze up, the elf finds a particularly attractive local. There is compliments, wooing, nights spent singing praises and admiring features, before they finally move on and goodbyes are said (in fine romantic elven).
Continued discussion is not fruitless, this thread has many pieces of fruit in it, all you have to do is write, express and find them for us to share.
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1. ;-) is a sign that you shouldn't take the point before, in this case my "proven point" to seriously.
2. I agree, it is rpg time, but it is also time for character development. Why on earth/golarion/Toril/Oerth should there be hard coded changes to force the player to play this aspect of his character more or less the same. The obvious answer for you seems to be "because I prefered it", the obvious answer for me would be it shouldn't.
Although this point wasn't what I meant wit fruitless (that was, as explicitly stated, our respective take on meditation, a whole), it might be the same here. The fruit is already there, but tossing it around a few more times will not make it any juicier.
Again, I am done arguing in this thread and this discussion starts to become an argument (if you need to know why, just send me a mail, you will find my e mail adress in my profile - I won't discuss my reasons on the open board as it might lead to a misunderstanding I'd rather avoid) so I bow out.
Greetings everyone
Nice to meet you.
I though this might be the best place to ask this since it is elf related. I'am designing a half-elf character who was raised in Absalom right and I was wondering if their are any houses that take in elf/half-elf enrollments besides the house of avenstar. I want my character to be brought up in a more human orintated house so I can relate him to humans more than elves.
cheers.
See this is a good thing, you are culturally designing your character. I'm not sure about the Absalom houses, but an elf with a human mindset is certainly interesting. It could be quite a shock if he becomes a more unusual type of human, start him at something like 130, so his views are perhaps a bit odd/grim.
"An Elf of 150 has the same skills and BAB and blah blah blah as my 15 year old Human. Are they dumb or what har har har!".
*An Elf has time. Lots of time. In a day you might need to Do Homework, take a shower, go to work, eat, see some friends and enjoy a little ME time. Now I want you to do all of that in three hours.. now.. hurry up. Go! Let's be silly and say you could jam all your day's work into about four hours. Why in the hell would you? Imagine running around like a madman trying to do everything right now at once. That's an Elf trying to live 150 years in 15 years.
Sure he could take the same classes you do when you do but hey... how about I go to the Beaches of Rizeel for 10 years so I can witness the different shades of the Sunset? Oh you didn't know that each shade or red changes each day on a decade long cycle at this beach...? Oh right.. you're Human, why would you care about anything but breeding and killing?
(Haughty and with good reason).
An Elf PC at 1st lvl has just started to bother to dabble in this Adventurer thing. If they decide to go crazy and do it forever then you hit level twenty at eighty years old and then when you croak in a wet bed due to a lack of bladder control the elf could be level 20 in over ten classes when they get bored of running around like an over active gerbil at 300 years.
"Elves have low cons and are frail and sleepy.".
*More frail on average than a human yes but are Humans Frail? Any Dwarf playing Pathfinder would not pick Human.. since they are so frail...
"The book says Elves hate or look down on everyone and GriefTrolls will take that and run with it!".
Those type of people would play a side of beff as an A-Hole.
"Gods kiss Elf butt!? Pfft... Elf = Marysue!".
*Gods kiss everyone's butt but more so a race that learns the big truth about the Gods. They need us more than we need them. We are caught in the crossfire between powers beyond our understanding or control. In the big picture mortals are powerless... yet we are the source of all of their power. Our souls feed their realms and our faith feeds their power. If we turned our backs on them they would wither and die. Let me clarify. A god is a God with or without us buuut.. it's like you and I being in a fight. Mortals are Guns, ammo and bombs. I could take you in a fight but you could blow my brains out. Elves don't NEED Gods. Mortals don't need them... but elves know it.
So do the Gods and they will take any steps they can to win the arms race even if they are going to offer the natives candy, fresh water and medicine for their Oil.... uh I mean Spells for their Worship.
I liked the view on the Golarion gods. Perhaps the Elven teachings do expose the great lie, and push them to a better bargaining position. It has to be asked though, why are the elves so worthy of special treatment and why can't humans enter the arrangments elves can, multiple god worship with dual benefits, entering pacts to be saved? Too much favouritism and claims that they are so special in the text.
On the haughty and with good reason artistic point, there is a giant flaw. One could take the time to appreciate the flow of colours over decades on a beach, heighten one's artistic sense truly, appreciate natural beauty, and that is certainly a mark of one's superiority if you want to show off, but the human in those decades could do a lot more than breed and fight. They could read a library and form their own theories. They could build ten towers with great views, they could train a few generation of guardsman for the protection of kith and kin, they could concentrate on economic growth and enable their further exposure to the good things in life, or oversee a city rise in prosperity. If they seized power, they could be just and a historical inspiration for future do-gooders or moralists. It is a pragmatic and application of time issue. Elves spend a lot of time on aesthetics, it is their prime form of distraction.
Why can't Humans do it?
Wrong question.
Why don't Humans do it?
Humans tend to focus on "now" and "want" it's another drawback of the so called short life span. They have to get all they can while they can. Few of them can see beyond their lives and at best the lives of their children. Beings like Gods think and plan in the eons in Pathfinder. We have proof of this already.
I agree with you in truth 3.5 on some points and I think this shows that our points are the same. There is two ways to look at it. There is a reason for why Elves view the world the way they do and why Human's can't, or do not see it. My over all point of the post was to try to stem the knee jerk "Elves are Broken!" stuff flowing out of some folks.
Elves are not broken, they are Elves.
The thing that makes Elves Great will never really come into play for a PC of Elf or non-Elf breeding. To really see what makes them so great you'd need to play their long lives. Few games are going to cover 90+ years. Say you played an extended Kingmaker Game. You could be on the great grand of the Baron who runs the kingdom with advice from the Elf that helped found the place.
Any-way, what I am saying is the "Elf Book" was speaking about Elves as a whole, taking them as a whole and showing how their world works. It's easy to see them as Mary-Sue's when you try to apply the Elf PC with The Elf Nation. Sadly the Elf PC will rarely get to live up to the greatness of their race.
They are at their best if they can last generations of humans, and commit themselves, and not fall into elven arrogance.
Haughtiness isn't skill, it isn't progress, it is un-wise. An elf that can act a little more like a human (or the short lived races) while still remaining elven is a true credit to the species. They have the elven benefits, outside exposure and a flexibility to change. Such an elf is presented as quite rare, since they do seem quite homogenous and not quite so excellent and singular.
I would love to buy this book... except that Amazon marketplace lists a used copy at $900.00. I guess I'll pick up the PDF for $7.
I haven't seen anything on these boards that would make me think the book was worth $900.00.