ok as the title implies im looking for help building a fighter rogue. i have an inexperienced player in this department. While he is a veteran he's only ever played a pure rogue and this is our first go with pathfinder rules. he is currently level 5 but his character almost dies every battle because he's built him as a skill monkey and decided he wants to go more melee now but made some really poor choices along the way to convert now. Since he's so underpowered combat wise to the other players and there more optimized it's starting to drag him down and i've decided to let him rebuild his character via a special quest and will help him build him retrain his new character. Now he likes to keep things simple and doesn't like to have too many complex rules at his disposal so the simpler the better. Also with the rebuild he has some limitations since his character is pretty important to the story arc. We agreed we don't really want to change WHO he is just help him fill out his character more towards combat oriented. we agreed a dip into fighter, staying a rogue, and readjusting the skill he uses really wouldn't change his personality that much. he already tries to be combat oriented he just doesn't have the build to hold his ground and pull it off. We used a high rolling method so he has REALLY good stats but we will not be changing those so as not to change his character in this way. i have some ideas but i would like to see others builds ideas in order to use the whole build or just peaces. I would like to avoid builds that FORCE him to use every rogue talent and feat to pull off. I would like him to have SOME room for personal choice for instance. so the less feats and talents you can pull off in your build the better. before his rebuild he lacked a high enough AC to stand his ground, to low HP, and his hit accuracy was to low. so in the rebuild we're sacrificing a little flavor, taking a skill cut, and trying to up were he was too weak to do what he wanted.
I'm not looking for an optimized DPR build but we are looking for one that he can pull his weight in combat so to speak. so again the less restrained the build is the better.
OK so there will be some guidelines,lets just think of this as a challenge to build the character though :D Also i have read a number of other build threads but many lean pure rogue, are trying to completely optimize, don't take into account the APG, or are two weapon fighting.
Rules: He still wants to be decent at being the rogue- IE decent skills, finding removing the traps, and being the agile showy one. He also wants to be good at fighting (support but not the tank). If things get bad real quick he's not beyond retreating and UMDing to heal or getting in some puck shots with a bow if he's hurt. Skills are open to work with but he does enjoy spy stuff- disguise, diplomacy, sense motive,escape artist,linguistics, and bluff(he's the spymaster in the kingmaker AP). He loves his UMD but he only uses wands so far and will probably keep it that way. We play in a higher fantasy campaign but for this purpose lets assume standard wealth per level for builds. i have a few ideas for feats but im having a hard time deciding when he should take what or if something would be better so the more builds the better. His character will restart at level 5 BUT a complete build to level 20 would be nice so he a goal, also many builds will take higher levels to completely master the path. He doesn't have to have everything right away, he;s happy growing into a stronger melee fighter as he progresses up to 18th level. Also we also use a houserule retraining system: at each level up players can retrain HP, a feat, spell, class feature, a level worth of skills, or just about anything else they gained during a level up- but only 1 and it must be legal (ie no breaking a feat tree, taking a higher level spell, and had to qualify at the same level he took it etc). So people can use this in there builds if they want to. Example at level A take feat X but at level B retrain for feat y, remember the choice must be legal and must have been able to take at that level. A good build shouldn't really need it but it does come in handy, most the players use it mainly to retrain HP roles to try and get a higher role.
these are the things he's adamant about not changing for fluff reasons or are not allowed to change.
Race: elf
Stats: STR:18 DEX:18 CON:13 INT:14 WIS:13 CHA:14 these are before 4th level stat increase but include racial mods.
Signature weapon: elven curved blade- this will be the weapon he will focus on in his build. not the best choice but thats turning out to be the biggest challenge as elves get it as a martial weapon but rogues dont have that proficiency.
levels 1-5: he;s only allowed to dip into fighter for 1 level until level 5 after that it's fair game. He MUST start as a rogue. my idea was to take fighter at 2nd level so he would get martial weapons and before he got any traits and could take weapon focus. He originally burned a feat to take martial weapon OUCH!
also important to note. The party is REALLY good at team work and moving into flanking position for him so he can SA. while he get's SA often there's some nice feats that can help him maneuver into position and help him get flanking easier.
How did he die, in detail?
The ability scores are nice.
I will be back with a build within 12 hours. It might be within a few minutes, but my sleepiness normally catches me off guard so I can't promise that.
edit:I may come back with suggestions.
he didn't die, he almost dies, like a lot. at least once a session he comes close to getting killed and if not for hero points he would have died many times. his character as is, is just not turning out fun for him, he originally wanted to make a whole new character but i decided to look at his build closer and allow him to retrain some things. he knows what he wants his character to do and how he wants him to be he's just not sure how to go about making the smartest and efficient choices.
we've been thinking about going the shatter defense route but working into it more mid range levels. he seems to just get hit a lot and doesn't have the HP to take more than an attack or 2 from monsters the parties CR. we were considering taking defensive feats like dodge, toughness, and offensive defense and then retraining them latter on to go more offensive with the shatter defense tree. he's pretty decent at actually hitting and get SA damage but unfortunately it always seems to piss the monsters off and they almost kill him in one blow on a retaliate.
This is a Pretty survivable. Human though
Go brute/scout rogue20.
I haven't done ALL the work for you.
Drop in a fighter level and change the race.
Besides between making opponents shaken (-2 to hit,saves) AND flatfooted when you PA, adding your SA as AC (Offensive Defense) and Beffuddilng Strike (-2 to hit) plus Brutal Beating makes any intimidated opponent sickened.
Stacked -6 to hit and SA to rogue's AC makes for a hard to hit rogue.
He'll also auto SA when he charges/moves 10ft.
1 SA 1d6, Frightening, Martial Weapon Prof: Longsword, Intimidating Prowess
2 Evasion, Wpn Fcs: Longsword
3 SA 2d6, Brutal Beating, Power Attack
4 Scout’s Charge, Dazzling Display
5 SA 3d6, Extra Talent: Befuddling Strike
6 Offensive Defense
7 SA 4d6, Conrugan Smash
8 Skirmisher, Resiliency
9 SA 5d6, Shatter Defenses
10 Trapspotter
11 SA 6d6, Extra Talent: Hunter's Surprise
12 Bleeding Attack
13 SA 7d6, Iron Will
14 Crippling Strike
15 SA 8d6, Feat
16 Slippery Mind
17 SA 9d6, Extra Talent: Another day
18 Defensive Roll, Opportunist
19 SA 10d6, Talent
20 Master Strike, Skill Mastery
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I would also go with the Scout Archetype taking a fighter level at 2. My feat/rouge talent selection for the first couple of levels would look like this
1 - Intimidating Prowess
2 - Power Attack
3 - Weapon Training (Elven Curve Blade); Dodge
At this point you can decide what you want to focus on. I would look into getting Cornugon Smash and eventually Shatter Defenses. Also you want to get mobility and spring attack as close to when you get skirmisher as possible.
Also he can throw a few more levels into fighter and get a Sash of the War Champion to get some extra AC from a Breastplate while still moving at full speed.
I made this halfelf rogue-fighter at level 12 some time ago, 25 Point-Buy, just as an idea. Amulet of health should still be possible, by RAW/RAI. Favoured Class Bonus could go into HP.
Class: Rogue 6, Fighter 6 Level: 12
Alignment: chaotic-good Race: Half-Elf Size: medium
Ability Modifier
Strength: 12 +1
Dexterity: 26 (17+2Half-Elf+3Level+4Belt) +8
Constitution: 14 (12+2Amulet) +2
Wisdom: 12 +1
Intelligence : 13 +1
Charisma : 13 +1
HP 24(Con) +8(1.level) +33 (Fighter) +22 (Rogue) = 87
Saves 6th-level Fighter 5/2/2 6th-level rogue 2/5/2 stats 2/8/1 feats 0/0/2 Cloak 4/4/4 total 13/19/11 (Evasion, +3 vs. fear, +2 vs. enchantment, immune to sleep, +2 vs. traps)
CMB: +11 CMD: 10+10+8Dex+1Str+1Dodge+2Ring = 32 +36 on disarm, sunder and similar effects (gloves)
AC: 10+9Armour (AC-Penalty: 0, max. Dex +7) +1Dodge +7Dex +2Ring = 29, mobilty 33/combat expertise 32
Initiative: +8 Movement: 30ft. Carrying Cap. light: -43 medium: 44-86 heavy: 87-130
Attack melee: +10class +8dex +3weapon +3wtr +1WF = +25/+20 (PA: +22/+17) Threat: 15-20
damage: d10 +8Dex +3wtr +2wsp +3magic = d6+16, PA: d6+22 [+3d6 sneak damage]
Feats
(14): +1 Skill Focus(Half-Elf), +6 Level (1,3,5,7,9,11), +4 fighter bonus (1,2,4,6), +3 x rogue talent (weapon training=Weapon Focus, Finesse Rogue=weapon finesse, combat trick=Dervish Dance)
Level1Rogue1 BAB0 1.Iron Will, 2.Skill Focus: Disable Device
Level2Rogue2 BAB1 3.Weapon Finesse (RT)
Level3Fighter1 BAB2 4.Skill Focus: Acrobatics, 5.Dodge (FB)
Level4Rogue3 BAB3 -
Level5Rogue4 BAB4 6.Dervish Dance (RT), 7.Mobility
Level6Rogue5 BAB4 -
Level7Rogue6 BAB5 8.Weapon Focus Scimitar(RT), Combat Expertise
Level8Fighter2 BAB6 9.Spring Attack (FB)
Level9Fighter3 BAB7 10.Power Attack
Level10Fighter4 BAB8 11.Weapon Spec. Scimitar (FB)
Level11Fighter5 BAB9 12.Improved Critical
Level12Fighter6 BAB10 13.Critical Focus (FB)
Class Features
+ Sneak Attack 3d6 + Evasion + Uncannny Dodge + Weapon Training 1 (+gloves) + Armour Training 2 (sash) + Bravery (+3Will vs. fear, sash) + Trapfinding (+3 Perception to locate Traps, +3 Disable Device) + Trap Sense (+2 ref/dodge vs. traps)
Languages
Aglarondan, Elven, Chondathan, Damaran, Undercommon, Orc,
Skills
Rogue: 48, Fighter: 12, Int: 12, fav. Class: 12 = 84
Skill (84) Rank class stat spec. total
Acrobatics (Dex) 12 3 8 +11 +34
Appraise (Int) 1 3 1 +5
Bluff (Cha) 10 3 2 +3 +18
Climb (Str) 8 3 1 +12
Craft (Int) -
Diplomacy (Cha) 4 3 1 +3 +11
Disable Device (Dex) 12 3 8 +9 +32
Disguise (Cha) 1 3 1 +3 +8
Escape Artist (Dex) 8 +8
Handle Animal (Cha)
Intimidate (Cha) 1 +3 +4
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int)
Knowledge (engineering) (Int)
Knowledge (local) (Int) 3 3 1 +7
Linguistics (Int) 3 3 1 +7
Perception (Wis) 12 3 1 +2 +18 (+21 locate traps)
Perform (Cha): Dance 2 3 1 +3 +9
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex) 8 +8
Sense Motive (Wis) 6 3 1 +10
Sleight of Hand (Dex) 1 3 8 +12
Stealth (Dex) 8 3 8 +19
Survival (Str)
Use Magic Device (Cha) 1 3 2 +3 +9
Total 84
Equipment (108.000) Weight
Belt of Dexterity+4 16.000 1
Amulet of Health +2 4.000 -
Mithral breastplate+3 13.350 15
Scimitar+3 18.315 4
Cloak of Resistance+4 16.000 1
Ring of Protection+2 8.000 -
Boots of Elvenkind 2.500 1
Circlet of Persuasion 4.500 -
Dueling Gloves 15.000 -
Sash of the Warchampion 4.000 1
Hat of Disguise 1.800 -
Handy Haversack 2.000 5
105.465 26
6 Tanglefootbags 300 (24)
6 Universal Solvent 300
Elixir of Hiding 250
Grappling Hook 1 (4)
Bedroll
20 Candles, Insectbane 2
Clothing, Explorer’s 10 8
@STR ranger
Offensive Defense and Beffuddilng Strike i think modify your SA and you can only use ONE at a time. i was looking at the same talents lol. Offensive Defense still seems the best talent there is though!
@Turgan- wow very detailed! i like having an idea of equipment you used. I'm not very familiar with pathfinder yet so a lot of equipment has changed.
also, i've been looking at the shattering defneses route and it seems pretty feat intensive to be decent at it. Is it really worth all the feats?! While it looks good on paper it seems a lot of feat investment when the party is pretty good at setting up flank for the rogue. OFC it's nice if the rogue is scouting ahead and decides to strike alone, but that could be very situational. My player stated it might be easier to get a body guard or side kick to help set-up SA or getting a magical beast with leadership. anyone ever tried something like this? seems there's some good teamwork feats for just this purpose-to make a side kick lol. Also the brute and scout seems a really good choice for an archetype but im not sure if my player is willing to drop trapfinding for it. i haven't discused it with him yet.
Maybe he should be a Ranger/Rogue. Then he could get a companion animal.
With his Elven Curve Blade, I think Fleet, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack, with W Focus, Imp Crit, Crit Focus, and your favorite Crit Feat is the way to go. Combine all that with the Rogue Feats Bleeding Attack or maybe Offensive Defense (if he scares easily). He dashes in, inflicts sneaky damage, and then runs away like a little girl while the enemy bleeds to death chasing after him.