So recently, (within the past year) I decided to do away with Ability score enhancing items all together. My reasoning for this is that I believe eventually characters are defined by gear, and race has little to do with the differences of mid-higher level characters. (Granted this has become less true with the implementation of alternate favored class options within the APG) Yet even so, little distinguishes a human rogue and an elven rogue of the same level when characters reach these higher levels.
So, I devised a way for characters to gain the stats lost from not having these valuable items, while pushing the differences I desire between the races at higher levels.
Character Creation:
Upon character creation, each race will choose 2-3 'favored abilities.' These abilities have no bearing on the character when it is created, but as the character gains levels, these abilities will progress.
To determine each races favored abilities, consult the ability score increases and decreases in the Core Rulebook.
FOR EXAMPLE:
A dwarf's 'favored abilities' would be:
Always CON
Always WIS
+1 Additional Ability of the PC's choice which can NEVER be CHA.
A human's, half elf's, or half orc's 'favored abilities' would be:
Pick 2 at first level (These races are varied but ultimately single-minded)
Advancing in Levels:
As the character gains levels, his abilities increase as follows:
Level 2: +1 to any two 'racially favored abilities'
level 4: +1 to any two abilities
level 6: +1 to any two 'racially favored abilities'
level 8: +1 to any two abilities
etc.
Stats at high levels and the differences between races
Assuming a character using 15 point buy from the Core Rulebook, a set of stats (unmodified) would look something like this:
16 16 12 10 10 8
At sixth twelfth and twentieth level they might look something like this (unmodified):
6th 19 18 13 12 10 8
12th 22 19 14 12 10 9
20th 26 22 14 12 10 10
A character at sixth twelfth and twentieth level might look something like this (unmodified and assuming stat enhancing items)
6th 19* 16 12 10 10 8 (*=one +2 item)
12th 20* 18* 15 10 10 8 (*= two +2,one +4 item)
20th 25* 22* 14 14* 10 8 (*= one +4, two +6 item)
The highest score a character can achieve in an ability score (assuming a score of 16 at first level) is:
26 in a 'favored ability'
21 in a 'nonfavored ability'
PROBLEMS:
-GM creating NPCs above first level is arduous.
Im not gonna lie, its a bit of a pain for a custom npc, but well worth the hassle for the PCs.
(As far as running a book adventure, I would probably use the NPCs stats with the ability boosting items and do not award them the items.)
-Spells that grant enhancements:
I have halved all spells that grant enhancements in my previous games. This is only a 'quick-fix' because somehow I missed this in all of my excited calculations. I have yet to devise a more fool proof way of incorporating these spells
-Characters dying and coming back more powerful.
To circumvent this, I have also house ruled that characters do not lose a level when coming back to life. Instead when a character is brought back their stats are modified as follows
Reincarnation: -2 CON, -2 CHA (This modification stacks with the modification of the new form and is meant to signify the shocking physical and emotional experience)
Raise Dead: -2 CON, still suffers ailments/no spells (similar to a character dying at first level)
Resurrection: -0 CON, 1 hit point still suffers ailments/50% spells
True Resurrection: -0 CON, Full health no ailments
Let me know what you think and PLEASE: how I can improve it!
(I am obviously not a huge mathematician so bear with my calculations if I have made a mistake or overlooked something major)
So far my PCs like the system a lot, but they don't know the game as well as me (which doesn't say much.)
Bump....
Any thoughts? Positive or negative?
Bump....
Any thoughts? Positive or negative?
I was actually going to make a similar system so I will look at yours to see how it works.
What is "racially favored abilities"?
Racially Favored Abilities are a select number of abilities chosen upon character creation.
Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings are granted three favored abilities.
Dwarf
CON, WIS, +1 of players choice that cant be CHA
Elf
DEX, INT, +1 of players choice that can't be CON
Gnome
CON, CHA, +1 of players choice that can't be
Halfling
DEX, CHA, +1 of players choice that can't be STR
Humans, Half-elves, and Half-orcs
Each of these races chooses two abilities at first level
(Showing their varied but ultimately limited cultures)
Well, what I see happening with this is that you are going to get lots of racial archetypes being played up without much for characters breaking type.
Say I build a dwarf cleric and an elven cleric. The elf gets intelligence, dexterity and the player's choice of wisdom for racial stats, meaning his wisdom is significantly boosted, but otherwise he's just filling out secondary roles (skills) or boosting a weak save (reflex). The dwarf, on the other hand, is chugging along with a maximized wisdom and a highly boosted constitution (hit points and fort saves) and can boost charisma on the "divide by four" levels for channel energy, or strength for melee combat.
So, you are going to see a lot more dwarf clerics than elf clerics. Vice versa for wizards.
Also, assuming that they get the normal level 1 stat boosts (that part isn't clear), you are actually capping stats at 30 (because you can get an 18 by dumping other stats), but I'm going to have two stats at 26 or one at 30 and two at 23. The end effect is that it boosts MAD classes' power and reduces SAD classes, but does pigeonhole classes a bit more by making racial boosts effect every level after first.
I don't see the need to nerf the spells like you have. They only last a short time (a maximum of 20 minutes) and by removing stat boosting items, the spells are actually useful. But, to each his own.
I'm a little confused about your rules on returning from the dead. Are these permanent, un-erasable penalties or are they just temporary penalties recoverable with a Restoration spell?
I honestly think that a simpler way to do what you have here is to just do the "+1 to any two stats" every two levels with no restrictions. Leave the racial stat mods. You keep the cap at 30, and don't force players into racially defined roles. It helps MAD players (getting more boosts more often) and rounds out SAD characters (shoring up those periphery abilities) and is really simple to understand.
The purpose of the raise dead rule is to prevent characters from dying on purpose.
Without the rule, a character could achieve an even level, die and be raised at 7th level only to reach eighth level again.
Granted, I could always have the most recently earned stats removed. However, when dealing with stats that change as often as this rule allows, it becomes very hard to remember which stats were raised most recently.
As far as the archetypes, this is one of the reasons for the rule. But I love the "K.I.S.S." mentality and your suggestion would fit incredibly well if you do not want to deal with the archetypal characters.
-Characters dying and coming back more powerful.
To circumvent this, I have also house ruled that characters do not lose a level when coming back to life.
I'm not sure if you're aware, but Pathfinder changed raise dead and the spells like it; they now give characters one or more negative levels (which impart a number of penalties), but don't reduce the character's actual level.
The concept of favored abilities sounds interesting, but like mentioned above it seems likely to create clearer "race + class" preferences than what exists now.
I'm not sure if you're aware, but Pathfinder changed raise dead and the spells like it; they now give characters one or more negative levels (which impart a number of penalties), but don't reduce the character's actual level.
HAD NO IDEA
lol thanks for the heads up AreI plan on starting my first PF game in a couple of weeks and that is something I definitely should be aware of.
I like the concept, and tried to create something like it a while ago but it proved very unpopular with my players!
I guess they just like all that bling.
I support the help for MAD, less help for SAD classes part of this concept. The SAD classes do seem to get a little warped in power mid-to-late game. Wizards [for example] don't need stupidly high saves, they just need DM's to accept that sometimes an encounter will only last a round or so.
Death: You could make the negative levels gained [still find that funny] via death stick around until the PC next gains a level.
Thumbs Up here.
Just give everyone a stat point at every even level and have done with it.
I agree with the comment about racial archetypes becoming the norm with this kind of system. And I would tend to not like something like that, generally speaking.
Has anyone actually tried playing a campaign with the +1 to an ability every other level (or something to that effect)? I would be interested in hearing how it worked.
Just give everyone a stat point at every even level and have done with it.
this. customization = good.
maybe put level based limits.
I like the idea of giving a stat boost to two stats every even level (on the opposite level characters get feats). Then you don't have to put in limits, which would be necessary to prevent players from having a 35 in an ability score by Level 20. Unless, that's what you want... I guess it's not all that crazy to think a 35 would be possible for a 20th level character, who, really, is pretty much a demi-god by that point.
I like this system. And it looks like I get to be the first one to say that the way it encourages racial archetypes is a good thing.
One thing I liked about 4E was the removal of ability booster items. Instead, you just get ability increases more often (+1 to two of your choice every fourth level, and +1 to all at 11 and 21).
Items with similar names exist, but function differently. An item that would in 3E boost Strength might instead give the character a bonus to a single Strength-based attack or skill check once a day.
Granted, things scale differently in PF, so giving out points at a different rate is probably appropriate.
I like this system. And it looks like I get to be the first one to say that the way it encourages racial archetypes is a good thing.
Really?
Yet another elf wizard. Yay.
I'd just like to register disagreement here. I think racial archetyping needlessly builds repetition into the system that doesn't need to be there. Paizo has done a great job of nerfing the racial lock-in that was present in 3.5e, such that it's not unreasonable to play a half-orc wizard, or really any other race. In my not-even-remotely-humble opinion, race should provide inspiration, not forced mechanics. As in, elven traits should suggest to a player "hey, this might make a good elf" while not actually seriously penalizing the player who decides an elf barbarian might be interesting to play after his first fifteen elven wizards die.
In the last decade I've had a lot of characters, both as PCs and as NPCs. There's something intriguing about finding new ways to assemble the Lego that surprisingly work, often by using pieces you'd never guess go together.
But that's me. Now we've both registered our opinions.
I like this system. And it looks like I get to be the first one to say that the way it encourages racial archetypes is a good thing.Really?
Yet another elf wizard. Yay.
I'd just like to register disagreement here. I think racial archetyping needlessly builds repetition into the system that doesn't need to be there. Paizo has done a great job of nerfing the racial lock-in that was present in 3.5e, such that it's not unreasonable to play a half-orc wizard, or really any other race. In my not-even-remotely-humble opinion, race should provide inspiration, not forced mechanics. As in, elven traits should suggest to a player "hey, this might make a good elf" while not actually seriously penalizing the player who decides an elf barbarian might be interesting to play after his first fifteen elven wizards die.
In the last decade I've had a lot of characters, both as PCs and as NPCs. There's something intriguing about finding new ways to assemble the Lego that surprisingly work, often by using pieces you'd never guess go together.
But that's me. Now we've both registered our opinions.
I agree entirely. Getting rid of the ho hum tedium of racial archetypes is something that actually makes me wonder whether I might feel more positively about having other races in the game than humans. I really hate how much non-humans end up being 'humans in silly clothes' who have archetypal behavior. I like that elves are now more than just effeminate humans who are pretty and live in the forest. and that dwarves aren't just short humans who like drinking beer, that halflings are short people who like their comfort and food, etc.
I really hate how much non-humans end up being 'humans in silly clothes' who have archetypal behavior.
And your solution to this is to make them more like Humans?
One thing I used to do was allow people to train up to one attribute per level -- it took time, and it cost them money (and XP, hey, it was 3.0/3.5, not PF, and things had XP costs back then).
I'm not sure that I still have the exact rules for how I used to do it, but I do remember some of them, namely:
- You could not boost any ability more than 4 times using this method.
- The person who trained you needed to have a higher level in the attribute (and you had to pay for their time)
- The time (and XP cost) increased each time you increased an already-trained attribute (exponentially, so it was 1 day for the first bump, 4 for the second, 9 for the third...)
Ultimately, the system worked out pretty well -- but I never ported it over -- probably because of the whole "XP penalties are bad" philosophy to PF
I really hate how much non-humans end up being 'humans in silly clothes' who have archetypal behavior.And your solution to this is to make them more like Humans?
In that they may make competent members of all classes? Sure.
Is it really a good thing if ALL elves are exactly the same? Should Humans be the only race with any kind of diversity? I don't think so, but apparently we disagree on this.
Ultimately, the system worked out pretty well -- but I never ported it over -- probably because of the whole "XP penalties are bad" philosophy to PF
Never understood or agreed with that. XP penalties suck, but no one ever MUST take one, unless you die. Gold is a decent deterrent, but only to a point. Once you become stupid rich, I don't see any reason casters can't make everything they want (giving them the time to do so, of course - I think at higher levels, PCs earn some down time since they don't have to handle every Goblin raid anymore). XP always hurts, on the other hand (note that I'm thinking of Wizards who could learn most, if not all spells by this time if he really dedicated to it - or Divine casters, who simply know them all).
But I digress from the point at hand.
I don't particularly like your idea, OP. It's kinda...complicated. The best House Rules are the least intrusive ones, for the most part.
I offer this idea...
- Add 1 to all attributes at every 3rd level (Equivalent to a +6 item in each ability at 18th level).
- PCs get +1 to one attribute of their choice at 4th level (As normal).
- No permanent ability boosting magic items (except perhaps inherent bonuses)
- Spells that benefit abilities get no change.
This improves all PCs (Both MAD and SAD), and even unconventional choices for classes (such as an Elf Paladin) can be nearly as good as their more optimized counterparts.